470: Feeling Underqualified? Land The Role You Want With This Career Advice

Liz McLean 00:00

I tell my clients, every industry, no matter what it is, they have problems they're trying to solve right now, debates that are happening right now that you can just go join the conversation. That's what I told her to do, just get involved, get in the conversation. And she landed a job that way.

Introduction 00:21

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:46

Okay, it's Scott. But you're not going to hear from me in this episode, because I'm taking some of our HTYC advice, and I'm stepping away from work. And this time for an entire month to be able to spend time with my family, and unplug. So I'm not going to be on this episode, or the next few. I am leaving you in great hands, of the Happen To Your Career podcast team, I know you're gonna love it.

Phillip Migyanko 01:07

People often ask, "Okay, so what do the most successful people do?" And you can imagine, we get this question a lot. You might be having this thought about, "you know, I know I need to be doing things differently. But I just don't know how." And today, we thought we would tell you stories of people who have been successful through the process, and we're going to dissect what made them successful. And after you hear each one of those stories, you're gonna get those learnings and implement those strategies now for yourself. Not tomorrow, but today. Well, hey, this is Phillip. I am the Director of Client Results here at Happen To Your Career. And as you heard from Scott, the rest of the team and I, we're going to be taking over the podcast for the next few weeks. And today, I thought what a better opportunity to bring over some people to help answer that question about what do the most successful people do, then there are amazing coaches who actually help people do that very thing. And you've probably heard them before on the Happen To Your Career podcast. But today, I thought I would welcome both Ang and Liz.

Liz McLean 02:12

Thanks, Phillip. Super excited about this topic.

Angela Barnard 02:15

Thanks, Phillip.

Phillip Migyanko 02:16

Well, one of the things that we, as a team, often talk about are, you know, the people who just do this really well. And were bringing a story from somebody today that we thought was really successful, and just want to share that over. So I think Liz, let's start off with you. I know you have a really specific person you were thinking about.

Liz McLean 02:35

Yeah, I do. I was thinking about my client, Kylie. Let me give you a little bit of backstory. When I met her, she was... I wouldn't say quite mid level career. So she was a little bit newer in her career tenure. And she worked in the fashion industry. And I met her because she had gone through a transition or a layoff. Transition being a euphemism, she had been laid off from a large fashion company, retail brands with probably 20,000 plus employees. And so she was living in New York City. And I think she had originally gotten that job through a college New Hire program, right. So she was coming to this job search, you know, with the tool she had already learned via, you know, school career services, or on campus hiring events. And she found herself stuck, cuz she was applying. And it was a time when her industry was down. You know, there wasn't the demand for her skill set at that time. And so she was really struggling, she was finding postings, you know, very, I like to call it "the reactive side of the job search coin". And so we met and she was just lovely to work with. And I said, "Well, you know, let's see if we can be a little bit more proactive about this." And I said, "Well, what do you really love about this work? Like what got you into it?" And really tapping back into her curiosity. And I said to her, I said, "If you could go talk to anybody, about any topic...." and she really loved like niche–I like saying niche, but I alread said niche. She loved you know, these really narrow areas within her field. And I said, you know, she was really curious. The the word. That's the buzzword of the day. Curious about these topics, and I said, "Well, why don't you just go find people that are creating great content, and connect with them?" And she was like, "Well, I can do that. But I haven't done this." You know, she came to the...we hear this all the time from clients, right? She's like, "Well, who am I? You know, I haven't worked in this specific area. Who am I?" So, you know, if you just show up authentically and curious, that's the key being authentically people can smell you coming from a mile away if you're trying to fake this technique, and just engage with their contents and start consuming. So the good news is, it's something you like, and you want to learn more about and engage with our content, and start to comment, because and you know, we know this as coaches, there are lots of people that really love their topics and are creating content out there in the world, and are just getting crickets. And how much would they love to have someone come and say, "Yeah, I'm really excited about this, too. I just... I want to talk about it." So I encouraged her to lead from that... lead her job search from that place of curiosity. So she started doing that. And what happened was, people started to get curious about her. And they turned it around, and they said, "Well, hey, who are you? Like, what are you doing? Are you looking for a job?" And that's how she ended up landing her job is, and I coached her to say, like, as much as you can make it about the work itself, and the content and take yourself out of it, get out of your own head, gather your own way, as far as like, who am I to show up, I don't know these things, just follow what you love and what you want to know about. Because there are people out there that would love to talk about these topics. And I mean, I'm not a fashion person. We can be like, I don't know that world. She's like, "What should I talk about?" Like, I don't know. But guess what you do? You know that. And every industry, I tell my clients, every industry, no matter what it is, they have problems they're trying to solve right now, debates that are happening right now that you can just go join the conversation. That's basically what I told her to do, just get involved, get in the conversation. And that will cause that reciprocal curiosity. And she landed a job that way.

Phillip Migyanko 06:50

That's super awesome. I think it's funny, because it's one of the things that I think goes for all of our clients, in one way, when they are proactively tapping back into what makes them curious, and engaging with that content, whatever is put out in the world. And I think there's things about each one of our stories, but what we see so much for the people who do this process, and when they mean this process, it's this career change process, or when they're basically in the middle of a conversation when they're talking to somebody they have never met before. And you might find yourself in the same situation all the time. But as coaches, what we tend to find is the people who do very well are the ones who are tapping back in the curiosity point, but really engaging in that, and making a really genuine conversation from that. And I'm curious, have you found the same thing with your clients, you find the same kind of thing... I know. I'm teasing you Ang, because I know this is what she also talks about all the time. We all read the same thing. We've had hours long conversation on this. But yeah, I'm curious. Ang, do you have a client that's been like this as well?

Angela Barnard 07:56

Well, I love that you're curious, you're starting off with that. That's the key word right now. And the thing with that is, if you guys notice that when you show up from this place of curiosity, it's about the energy that you're projecting, instead of being like, worried about what people are going to think about you or if you're good enough to do X, Y, and Z thing, you're just curious. And that energy leads to the opportunities that light you up, right, but it starts with that energy. So I'll tell you about someone who I would consider to have really good energy that led to the opportunities that he has in his life today. I would say he's one of my favorite clients, but I say that about every one of my clients. So just keeping it real. But the client that I'm thinking of is Josh. So Josh came to me a while back, and he spent his whole career working in retail, everything from shoes, to suits, all the things and he was a really good leader, like he was always at the top of these agencies. But the thing with him is he had a family and he worked a lot of hours. And he worked a lot of weekends. And that's kind of what is common in the industry that he is in. So the thing with him is he had a lot of doubts, and if he could do something different. Because his education was basically, and what he had done, he didn't go to college at all, he just kind of started at a young age and, like, worked his way up in the industry. So he's like, "Well, do I need to go back to school? I don't even know exactly what it is I could do next." And that's very common with the people that Phillip and Liz and I work with is that people are like, "I have no idea what I could do. What is it that I even want to do?" And then there's always the question, would you guys agree, that people ask us, "Do I have to go back to school?"

Phillip Migyanko 09:43

Oh my gosh! All the time.

Angela Barnard 09:46

And they're like "Oh, so I'm gonna have to be in debt and all this" and then we have this whole story about it, right? So this is...I love to share Josh's example because he did not have to go back to school. And the other reason why I'm sharing his example is because the job that he got on paper, if you looked at the job description, he did not meet actually any of the qualifications on that job description, including the education one, the years of experience in the field and the written job description. But then he grew fast into this company. So let me tell you what happened. All he said to me was like, "I know for sure, Ang, that I want to work a nine to five role, basically. I'm thinking of maybe like, it'd be cool to be in kind of like an office setting where I get to meet people on a regular basis, because that's completely new to me, I'm not used to like being in an office setting, I'm usually on my feet running around, managing all these retail stores, traveling a lot. It'd be nice to have some more, like, stability and consistency with a nine to five, so I can be home for the family. Because I know for sure I want that." And I said, "Okay, so what kinds of roles are of interest to you then that have those characteristics?" And he's like, "Well, one of the things, I guess, is kind of like the banking or financial industry. I've been curious about that. Then again, I don't have any experience working in that field." You start going down that path again. I was like, "What if you just showed up really curious and you got to learn more about the field? Do you know anyone that currently works in the field?" And he was like, "I do have a friend that works in the fields." And I was like, "Well, what if you just reached out to him and just see if he knew anyone else, maybe someone could chat with you for a little bit." So he reaches out to his friends, he says, "I'm curious about this field." So anyways, his friend introduced him to someone else. And this guy really connected with him. And long story short, this guy ended up getting a job at a major bank, they paid for him to get all this special training and certifications. It wasn't long before he was running the entire bank there. And I'm talking like a year guys, it was fast. And then he gets this job, he truly loves that overall, the people that he works with and everything. But then I check in. He's like, "You know, Ang, I really love it overall, because I get to be with my family. But to be honest with you, I'm getting fat. I've been sitting around a lot. It's like, all I do all day is sit and I want to be walking around more. I'm feeling that urge to get out there and start walking around more." And I was like, "Okay, so what have you been curious about?" And he's like, "I'm curious about doing some like, where I get to kind of like, build partnerships or meet with a lot of people." So anyways, he started talking to me about that dream. And I said, "Well, let's just explore that. What would that look like?" So then again, he started reaching out, right after this same thing, he met with someone, had something in common with them, the person really liked him, offered him a job. And now he's the VP of like, client partnerships, or I forget the role. And what he does on a regular basis is take people out golfing. And he loves it. And I love his story. Because the bank role, somebody might be on the outside thinking like, "Okay, well, he found this job, and then he didn't like it." But I want you to see that that job actually led to his next job. It even gave him more clarity. He had more connections, he just had more confidence in himself. And I felt like that was a stepping stone he needed to get to where he is now. And I don't think he's done. I don't think any of us are ever done. This is an ongoing process. We were just talking about this, like, what do you guys think? Like, it does even.

Liz McLean 13:13

It's iterative, like, life.

Angela Barnard 13:15

Yeah. And because I want to say this, because a lot of times clients show up and they're like, "you know, for sure I'm gonna find the job that I want. And this will be the end all be all... like, this will make me so happy." And I was like, "No. You're the kind of person that wants to keep growing." And that means this is an ongoing thing. We constantly keep getting more clarity about ourselves, and we constantly keep shifting, and we constantly are just curious. And that's the kind of energy that leads to, I think, an awesome life. So that's my story.

Phillip Migyanko 13:45

It's super interesting, because I think partially from both Liz and Ang's story here is that, one of the commonalities to use, one of those terms we're going to use just in a second, is that what people are doing is just kind of getting out of their own way and showing up in a curious way, which actually in reality, means that they are showing up present, they're having really great energy, they're asking really great questions, and they're seeing the opportunities. And what can happen for people when they get to spots, where they don't feel like they're enough, they feel like if they go back to school, they feel like this is the person who's going to have the job as they get attached to this outcome, they get attached to the thing that's going to happen here. And it kind of detracts from actually having a really quality conversation and ends up really working with somebody that could be a really great person, that could be part of your tribe or be a good friend moving forward as well. I think all of these things kind of coincide with each other in the aspects of, yeah, showing up being curious is really important from an aspect of like, what are you going to talk about, but actually, it's so much more important than that because it allows you to really build a connection, which to your story with Josh, Ang, it serves you years on down the line.

Angela Barnard 15:04

And I love that you said, the whole concept of not getting attached to it. Because what happens there is when you start to get attached to the specific outcome, your energy shifts now to a lower state, you can be that kind of needy person, and then you don't leave room for the amazing surprises of life. Because Josh would have never known coming to start a coaching process, like, he would have never imagined that he would be where he is right now. But I felt like he just showed up and he was committed to being curious and then led to where he is today. And just to kind of summarize some of the consistencies that I've seen, and I know from hearing things from Phillip and from Liz, is that this whole, like, people show up with curiosity, the ones that do well, I would say, through this process, find a role that they're really excited about, they show them curiosity, they often, in those conversations, find something that they can relate to the other person on where that person feels like they're a part of their tribe. There's commonalities that are talked about there, where that person feels like they want to help them get to where they want to go. And that starts first off with curiosity. And then they show up intentional, because each person got clarity, some little bit of clarity around what it is that they wanted. And they were intentional about pursuing that, but they stay unattached. So I think those three things you need to pay attention to, if you want to be successful. So that was Josh's story. But I know that Phillip also has a really good story to share. So, Phillip.

Phillip Migyanko 16:44

Yeah. So you know, I'm just thinking about, okay, I've got a client who is actually going through this process right now. His name is Tom. And when we first started working together, and after working through his ideal career profile, he started gathering a list of what he was describing as target organizations. At the time, he was thinking about sustainability. And he thought that was the answer. And, you know, he started gather a list and got to a point in this process, and I know Liz and Ang, you've also been here as well, where they start to gather a list of, like, "Yeah, I'm gonna go out there. I'm gonna go do it." And then they just suddenly, like, lose motivation over time. It's like, when you start off sprinting, and they're like, "Okay, sprinting was really hard. Now I gotta go to run" then it turns into a walk. Tom was basically like that. He started gathering this list, and kind of talking through it one of our sessions, he just suddenly stopped getting so excited. And we got to a point where I did the same thing that Ang did with Josh, and then Liz with her fashion client, we're like, "Okay, let's pause. Rewind. Let's get back to what you're actually curious about." So I asked him the question, which is something you can ask yourself right now, which is, "Hey, Tom. What are you curious about? Like, what do you want to know?" And to be honest, it was like a deer in headlights situation. He looked at me like, "I don't know. I'm not sure what to think or what to say" which is totally okay. He took some time, he went back and thought about it. And the next week, he came back to the session enthusiastic to share a list of education technology companies. Now, these weren't just any kind of education, tech companies, these were very specific ones that focused on skill building for children that were under 10 years old. Now, Tom has an infant daughter. And this was very important because it mattered a lot for him, his family, and it was kind of similar to the space he's been working in right now. And he began doing his reach out. So his target organization-based on these companies, and during his reach out, and he's making them personal, he's making valuable, direct, and doing lots of follow ups. And the reason he was able to do that, based on, kind of, the similarities what Liz and Ang are mentioning with our clients, is that he found somebody who made a lot of content. And her name was Hannah. And Hannah was a project lead at one of these target organizations, where she would create lots of these YouTube videos. And Tom loved it. Like he was able to not only look at her LinkedIn profile, but he looked at her YouTube, she had like, I don't know, five plus hour long videos, just detailing things out. Like he'd come back. He takes notes. He have questions on stuff. And so it just allowed him to be really curious about not only what the company is doing, but who an actual person at the company and what they were doing. So Tom watched all those videos. Yeah, he took notes. He wrote down the questions he was curious about, like, you know, "how does this tie into this? And how does this thing tied to this?" And allow Tom not to just have, you know, one great conversation with Hannah, he later reached out to her and had a really great conversations, but allowed him to have multiple, hour and a half long conversations with Hannah that she later introduced him to the chief revenue officer, which then later introduced to the CEO. And during all those times, the thing that Tom did really well is he completed what we later called sessions, these "conversation prep guides". And so before each call, he knew, like what Ang was talking about, he knew the things that he was going to do to build rapport, like building commonalities. He can call things he liked about them, especially Hannah's videos, and her energy bringing in there, he kind of knew how he's going to take the conversation. Every time we're always talking about, "Okay, so what would great look like for this conversation? Where do I want to direct this thing?" And he also knew that the questions he was actually curious to ask, not these ones about, "So Hannah, tell me about what life looks like, as far as a project lead?" Like none of those kinds of questions, they were actually ones he was very, very curious about. So he was no stranger to running meetings at all. So he knew how to really get the conversation where he wanted to go and wrap it up. But it really just came back to treating the other human being like a human being. And Tom is able to do this again and again, where now he's in discussion with this organization that Hannah works for, and ultimately creating rules for himself right now. Now, you might be listening to this podcast in the future, and he might have the role there, or he might not. But really, the more important piece is that he's doing what a lot of our really successful clients do, and he's building really great conversations that allow him to create a role for himself or, and/or actually, get introduced to people who are going to create the rule for himself. So he's doing this right now. But the one thing I didn't tell you is that he's not just doing this for one organization, he's actually doing this for another organization at the same time. And, you know, we have so many clients who come in, and they think I'm going to build this huge client company list and people list, and it's just ginormous. And they usually put Apple on there, they'll put Meta on there, they'll put Google on there, they'll put Amazon on there. But Tom only has four organizations. And you might be thinking only four, but really, he got ultra specific, focused on what he wanted, got really intentional with his curiosity, and really started to see all those things that he wanted to work for. So yeah, Tom, he's just doing this really well. And the bigger aspect here, and what we often talk about our sessions is that, you know, something might come from either one of these opportunities or might not, but he's gained the skills to essentially create opportunities for himself. And he's doing those within the conversations he's having. So Ang, I just want to turn it over to you. Wrap it up all the points that we're seeing as part of the stories.

Angela Barnard 22:40

Okay, so I am a note taker. So I'm gonna be here taking notes and everything because...and you should be too, because there's so much goodness here. Okay, so we know for sure that showing up with a curious mindset versus being attached is key through this process, number one. The second thing that we know happened is that all of these success stories involve conversations, you being curious, and having conversations with humans, other humans that can help you meet your goals, or introduce you to other people, like, you don't need, you know, a mile long list. A lot of times, you can just talk to one person, and they kind of hand you off to someone else, because that happened a lot. The thing is, I liked how Phillip brought up the list. And when you know, Tom started having this long list, you saw that shift in his energy where he started getting attached. And then the same thing with Liz's client where she...you helped her Liz, like, kind of shift out of that attachment to it. It has to be a certain way. It was kind of like, "yeah, we just stay curious, you love this stuff, follow what it is that you love." So let's stay intentional. We knew that each client of ours had something they wanted to pursue an idea, some kind of level of clarity and they started down that path. There was intentionality behind it, all of them, whether we mentioned it or not, did some kind of prep work before they talked to someone so they could find something to connect with that person on. So this is where that tribe mentality comes in. That's something I'm always talking about is really just focusing on building almost like a sense of friendship. And really, kind of, I see it as like you're going out and talking to people to see if you would really, like, click with them. If you could make a new friend. It's like, if when you approach it in that way with that level of curiosity that again, like, backsies key.

Phillip Migyanko 24:32

Okay, so we get people in here who might be asking, "All right, but what do I do about this now?" And like, I always tell people, Liz is our train conductor. She's usually the person who's like, "So guys, let's get to the point. Let's keep going. Like, what can we do about this?" So like Liz, wrap us up. Like, what can people do here with this information?

Liz McLean 24:51

Yeah, sure. Are you talking about like tactical steps, like literally, I'm gonna go out and do something right now. So we've already cited a lot of examples, right. So it would be, you know, obviously getting your mindset right, being curious, sometimes I'll recommend clients actually get away from their desks to do this, like if they really can't get to that place of curious energy, go to the bookstore, just go for a walk. And when you're in a relaxed state, where does your mind naturally go? And then just start to see if you can tap into that, and follow that, right? Just get to that energy and feeling like what that feels like, again, so you can do things like listen to a podcast, like "Oh, I love this topic. I remember, I really loved botany, like, I'm gonna go listen to a podcast on this. I'm gonna go what's really some really interesting episode." Oh, and then guess what? You can go reach out to the podcast host or you can reach out to the guest, and show up and express gratitude, right? I mean, Phillip, you are always saying like, "just go have a conversation, just go talk to people", right. And I would say, you know, no conversations, like, equals no opportunities, if you will. Like, you can't stay in your own head and not get out into the world, and connect with people to create these opportunities, right? So, you know, we live in 2022. The good news is, is like that you can get to a podcast, you can get to a book, some clients will lead with... lead from the company, just even a company that you like, or admire, or you're curious about, like, "I really love this product or service. Let me go learn more about that. How did they come to be? What is their culture like?" I mean, fall down the rabbit hole. Don't stay there, though, because we know, Ang and Phillip, we've talked about having clients where it's like, "you gotta get them at a research mode." And they'd be like, "Alright, who you're gonna go talk to?" Right. Now just go have the conversation. Go have it imperfectly, and that's okay. And just get out and keep having those conversations. And we've already talked about, you know, with the sum up intentional not getting attached, like how you do it, and you will get better at it as you do it.

Phillip Migyanko 27:12

Yeah. So you already hear where this stuff really comes down to is just getting into those conversations. And, you know, this is something we've been secretly wanting to record this podcast for a while now, because we often talk about so much like, "what do clients just need to do?" Like, they just need to get into conversations. And this is what you know, it sounds like when all of us, as coaches, we're talking together, we're talking about people, we're talking about the things they need to do, and really what ultimately need to believe in, you know, this is something we believe that it's just not something you can just teach in about getting to your next job, this is more about helping you but helping see the bigger picture here that it's just not about just having the next conversation, it's much more about, you're gonna keep having these conversations again, and again, and again, and again. And it's so much about evolving your career, both now and later. And this is my personal feeling where it's also in service to others. Because you might be thinking about this, from your perspective, but in X number of years, there's going to be somebody else who's in those shoes, who's gonna be coming to you and going, "Hey, I just want to learn about you and what do you do and blah, blah, blah" and then your job is to ultimately potentially help that person, and things later on down the line. This is so much bigger than all of us. And it's come so much back to more of how are you connecting with people on these ideas. And, you know, the other thing you might be thinking here as well as like, "Okay, Phillip, Liz, Ang, guys, this is just for extroverts." But we really see this as it's not just for extroverts. It's not just for introverts, like we've seen both groups do well with this as well. So you're gonna continue to build your tribe, your community, the people, your network, because we believe that this is where the opportunity is, and ultimately is created from and this is what we see our most successful clients do. They do those three things, and they get started now. So there's no better way to wrap it up than that, but thanks so much, Liz and Ang, for coming on, for showing everybody what the coaches look like, how we talk, how we think about all our stuff. So thanks for coming on.

Angela Barnard 29:15

Thanks, Phillip.

Liz McLean 29:16

Thanks, Phillip.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:22

Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they want to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And we can absolutely connect you with my team. I'm not answering my email right now, but I have a team member, Kate, who absolutely will make sure that you get connected with our team and the right person on our team so that we can figure out the very best way that we can help with that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:18

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Kate Wilkes 30:37

It's like, you have this sense of self doubt related to your work or your life accomplishments, like you've done these things, and you're just feeling like a faker. You think it's luck. You don't ever attribute it to your own abilities and your own skills.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:56

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.