478: How To Achieve Career Clarity When You Feel Stuck, Bored & Unfulfilled

Erin Szczerba 00:01

It felt like I was wearing 2000 pounds. Like I felt depressed. I had major brain fog. Any action I needed to take felt like, you know, I'm wearing this backpack of bricks trying to take the steps necessary.

Introduction 00:28

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:47

Back in 2005, I was working in a job that had me considering driving into a ditch or jumping out a second story window. Nothing fatal, but you know enough damage to give me some time off work. Crazy, right? Well after gaining 50 pounds through medicating with food and multiple anxiety attacks, I was pretty desperate for an escape. When I wasn't thinking about how to collect workers comp, I was internally screaming there has to be something better than this. There has to be. And since then, I've talked to many thousands of people who felt just like I once did. And this shouldn't come as a shock or huge revelation, but your job, your work should not make you physically or mentally ill. Work shouldn't suck the life out of you. Actually, it can do the opposite. It can add excitement, it can add fun, it can add purpose, it can add fulfillment and so many other positives to your life.

Erin Szczerba 01:45

So that's when I just was like, I don't know. I don't know where I would go from here. And I think there's a whole world of opportunity out there that I'm not aware of, that I need help figuring it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:00

That's Erin Szczerba. The really interesting thing about Erin's career change journey is that in some ways, she ended up right back where she started her career out 20 years ago. She spent the past few decades getting really clear on her strengths, defining her ideal role. And today, she's a completely different person. I want you to pay attention to how her experience with roles outside of real estate helped build her confidence and give her the mindset shift she needed to thrive as she reentered the real estate world much later. Here's Erin talking about what is different in her life compared to when she was working with Dell recently, and now that she's back in the real estate world.

Erin Szczerba 02:42

I would say the biggest difference is probably that I am 100% in charge of what I do every day. And what I see comes into my bank account.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:59

I remember chatting with you about that specific thing. And I remember that that was something that was, even though it can be scary I think for many people out there and it's not right for everyone, I remember you talking about it with some reverence, because it's not the first time that you have been fully in control, if you will.

Erin Szczerba 03:25

Yeah, there were two things going on. One is that I knew that there was so much that I loved about it. Because I do like to be able to have a wild idea, and then go investigate it and see– is this something I should pursue. I love the freedom of that. And I really loved the autonomy that I had as a business owner and entrepreneur. And I also really disliked the financial insecurity that I experienced. And so I was really torn about, you know, how do I have all of it? I want to have all of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:08

How do you have all of it? How do you get all the things, or at least the ones that are most important to you, right? So okay, let's jump away backwards for a moment here. Where did your career start out?

Erin Szczerba 04:20

I started in real estate. I had thought that I wanted to be an actress, and I was waiting tables, and I thought this is not it for me. I also want to be able to, like, buy things. I was like, "I don't think... maybe $500 a week isn't gonna work for me." So I thought, well, I love houses. That's what I do in my free time is I'm looking at houses. I'm going to open houses. I'm on realtor.com. I'm thinking about houses all the time. I want to decorate. I just love it. And so I was like "well, if I could get paid to, like, spend all my free time looking at houses that would be cool." Turns out, there's a profession where you get to do that. So at 25, I got my real estate license and started selling real estate.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:08

In chatting with you almost a year ago, it sounded like there were a lot of twists and turns compared to what led up to you working with Dell, and then ultimately leaving Dell, and then ultimately, eventually leading back into, you know, being fully control of your income, full circle in many different ways. However, you know, what caused you to make some of those changes along the way? What caused you to go from, you know, at 25 real estate eventually to Dell?

Erin Szczerba 05:42

Yeah, well, in 2007, I was a mom of an almost four year old. And my husband at the time and I made some choices to benefit his career. And all of these choices led to the realization that our marriage wasn't working. And he didn't want to be married. And so I went through divorce in 2008, which is also when the housing market crashed. And so at that time, I had to make a decision. The real estate career, I think every real estate agent who was selling real estate at that time will tell you, it changed dramatically. It went from being a nice career where, you know, you're helping buyers and sellers, and they're happy with you, because they're getting what they want for the most part to being incredibly stressful. It became kind of a dog fight between agents, because the sellers, you know, wanted more for their house and the buyers want to lessen, I was like, "Listen, I have enough stress in my life. I don't need more from my career, I need peace in my life. And my son needs me to be a peaceful mom, not a monster mom." Which is how I felt. I was mean. And so I made the decision at that time to do something else. And I didn't really know what it was, I was also flat broke. So we lost our houses in the housing market crash, we had to. I had no money, literally negative money. And so I just was like, "What can I do?" And I also was not ready to put my son in full time childcare. My husband had moved away. And so I was a full time single mom, and I just really felt like he's already missing one parent, like, am I going to be gone all day too? And so, I was just, like, begging the universe to give me an idea. And I had this idea to start an eco-friendly house cleaning company, because what do I know how to do that I can do better than other people and make money doing it, and will give me time flexibility. And I was like I'm not beneath scrubbing toilets. I'll do it. So I started an eco-friendly house cleaning company. The reason... And then I thought "Oh, I'll do eco friendly because I started using eco friendly products. And I'm loving them." And people are into that. I was in Denver, you know, so it's crunchy. And I was very lucky that I had this huge, you know, sphere of influence. And so I put together a little flier and I emailed it out and I got clients really quickly. And I was spending long days cleaning houses. I didn't know the right way to do it, but I learned. And so I eventually grew that into a well oiled machine that allowed me to go back to school. And I got my degree in organizational management. I still was spending... it still was like working three days a week. And I was spending a lot of time with my son. And then I sold that one in Denver. And then I started another. I moved to Austin to be close to my family. Started another one in Austin, sold that after two years. And then that's when I was like, "Now what do I do? I don't even know. I don't even know what jobs are out there. I've only ever worked for myself. So how do I get a job?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:12

What is this thing?

Erin Szczerba 09:14

Yeah, it was like, "do I have skills? I don't even know. Can my skills be used in corporate America?" So then I just started to investigate. I just started looking and talking to people and one thing led to another and I actually asked a friend's husband who was an executive director at Dell to review my resume and a job offer I had received from a very small company and turned out that he actually had just opened up a wreck on his team. He needed someone to be a Marketing and Communications Manager. And he was like, "you have pretty much everything that I'm looking for. And here's what I would need you to do." I literally didn't understand the words coming out of his mouth. And I was like, "I am so afraid, but I've only ever done what I already knew how to do. So I'm just going to try something new that I'm not already good at." And it was way more money than I had been making. And it was super exciting and very scary. And I became, you know, the least informed person in the room real fast and figured it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:24

When you were at that point in time, what was the scariest part for you to jump into that, as you called it, you know, thing that you had never done before?

Erin Szczerba 10:34

Well, it was just... I was afraid that I think I had definite imposter syndrome. I was really afraid that people will find out that I was totally incompetent and should never have been given that job with that salary.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:51

The way you talk about that, I am guessing you know that, at this point, almost everybody feels that way to various different times, sometimes many different times. What ended up helping you be able to, not just jump in, but move through that?

Erin Szczerba 11:10

You know, I think it was that I was surrounded by really good people. And I was very honest with the people on my team and with my boss. I felt overwhelmed. And that I, you know, these huge conglomerates use acronyms that nobody else knows. And then they change their acronyms like every other year too. So, a lot of times, nobody knows what acronym somebody's using. And so I was like, I need, like, a dictionary for these acronyms. And so I was really honest with people that I was feeling overwhelmed. But a lot of people told me, you've got to get used to that .You have to get used to not knowing. You have to, like, trust that you're going to find a way and just make small, valuable inputs.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:59

Why do you think it is, in your opinion, that we put so much... we being... many people all over the world put so much pressure on ourselves to know all the things as opposed to trusting that it can be figured out in one way or another?

Erin Szczerba 12:17

Well, I think that is because people don't really broadcast their lack of knowledge and the struggle, you know. I only was seeing the results of people who'd been at Dell for over 10 years. And it's also very much a... a corporate culture is very much, you know, achievement, like you're hearing about the people the overachievers over and over again. And so to not immediately be an overachiever is like, "oh, no. I must suck." And I do. It's very painful. And I do... I mean, I really am loving LinkedIn these days, because I feel like people are finally being super transparent and honest on there. And people are ready for some honesty about the hard stuff, about work, and I really liked that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:13

So what happened for you? What happened for you? You had eight years at Dell, I know that you enjoyed many things over the course of that time, what caused you to decide eventually that, "you know what, I think I'm ready for something else."?

Erin Szczerba 13:30

Well, I'm the kind of person who... I love to see, like, what's the next thing I'm going for. So for me, it was a promotion. I was an independent contributor. And there are several levels of independent contributors and I had moved up to the highest level of independent contributor at Dell, which meant that then I needed for me to move up again, I was going to need to go into people management. And my leaders were saying, "you know, you should be a people leader, obviously, you should do it." And so I started looking at these roles, and I actually interviewed for one. But even though this people leader didn't hire me, he wanted to have a follow up interview with me and talk about, like, "what's next for you? And how can I help you get there?" What I learned was that I was going to really need to begin eating, breathing and sleeping if I was going to move into a people management position. Because first of all, there's not that many, there's fewer available than the independent contributor positions, and more is expected of you. You're kind of that catch all in that catch all position when you're, you know, entry and enter into the people management. So I just was like, "You know what, I just can't do it. I'm just... Dell is a great company that I don't want to talk about or think about storage or servers anymore. I don't care about them. That's just the truth. I like what they do for me in my life, but I don't care about them." So that's when I just was like, I don't know. I don't know where I would go from here. And I think there's a whole world of opportunity out there that I'm not aware of that I need help figuring it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:17

I think that's a amazing because it's not easy to come to that realization where you said, you know, I just don't care about server like, I think that it's easy to say that in hindsight, but when we're there, when we are experiencing and going through all those things in the moment, it's like, "Well, should I? Shouldn't I?" And all the questions come up. So I think it may sound... it's easy for us to just gloss over that. That was a smaller thing. But that's actually really powerful that you came to that conclusion overall. What helped you come to that conclusion? Was it simply the conversation that you had about, here's what would be required? Or were there other things going on at that same time where it helped with that realization for you?

Erin Szczerba 16:10

Yeah, well, that's a good point. I definitely went through a season, a long season where I was finding it very hard to do my work. And I had my projects I was working on, and a lot of it was, you know, there was my maintenance work. And then there was some strategic things I needed to be working on and some problems I needed to be solving. And that's my jam. I love that. And I was feeling extremely demotivated. And I felt like something was wrong with me. And I was being a bad employee. And actually, the funny story, maybe this will be encouraging, or maybe people will think "what?", but I... for my review in 2021, my annual review was in March of 2021. And I had already... 2020 was such a bonkers year. And I, without the travel and without the events, I mean, I was coming up with ways to connect our partners with our account executives, which is part of my job. But I was like, "I'm not doing nearly as much as I used to do." And I was feeling really guilty about it. And I thought for sure, in my review, that I was going to be told, like, "hey, we understand it's been hard, but you got to get it together." And then what I was told was that I was super creative, and I showed all of this, you know, great problem solving and strategic ability, and that I was one of the most... what was it? I was one of the most, like, flexible, adaptable people on the team, and then I was getting a big race. Like, what? Oh, my gosh. So I mean, so that was helpful. But then, so I didn't feel as bad about my brain fog and my demotivation. But then there's only so long that you can, like, show up every day to work that way, you know, that's just not gonna work for me. I need to be excited about what I'm doing. I can't just, like, trudge along and collect a paycheck. And my leader at the time was like, "give some good thought to what you really want to do."

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:25

I think that is... that's a story that I've heard over and over again, in various different, like, names and companies, and job changed. But the commonality of somebody who, like in your case, you were going to work, you're feeling guilty about being able to contribute in the way that you wanted to. And then the perception of everybody else is that you're knocking it out of the park, that you're doing really well, "hey, here's more money." And that is... it's a weird position to be in, I think, from chatting with many people that have experienced that. But I think what's really powerful for me is that you... instead of just staying in that position, because it's actually I think, arguably easier to just stay in that position where people are telling you, "You're doing an awesome job. This is fantastic, like, keep on going." But instead, you started taking action to do something about it so that you could find the right ways that you wanted to contribute. So you didn't have to have those feelings anymore. So kudos to you, first of all, and what did you learn out of that?

Erin Szczerba 19:34

Oh, I think I learned that I do good... I think I learned that I do good work, first of all. And I also learned that I can do way better work. I'm able to do way better work than I've ever done. And that I'm much more motivated by, you know, aligned values than I am by a paycheck.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:02

When you say aligned values, tell me what really drives it for you? Like, what are some of the things that you value the most, that have to be there to create an amazing situation for you?

Erin Szczerba 20:16

So I want to be problem solving personally, you know. I want to be able to know that I'm solving a problem that actually directly impacts someone's life that is important to me. And that, you know, I can see the impact that it's making on individuals. And I also need to be in a decision making role. And I need to be in a visionary role, where I say, "here are the problems that I see. And these are the solutions, but I think we can do better than those solutions. Let's find new solutions, put legs on them, and see how much more impactful that is." And I need to be much closer to the customer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:14

So when you didn't have those values aligned, what did it feel like that was associated with having those gaps or having the lack of fit?

Erin Szczerba 21:28

It felt like I was wearing 2000 pounds of bricks. I felt depressed. I had major brain fog. Any action I needed to take felt like, you know, I'm wearing this backpack of bricks trying to take the steps necessary. It's just... and then after a day like that, where I really didn't feel energized, I didn't feel confident, I felt bad about myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:58

That's, you know, that's... I haven't heard anybody describe it like that. But that's actually very similar to the way that I felt, too, when I was misaligned with my values that ton of like, drudging through almost carrying all of that extra weight. So I appreciate that description on many different levels. So all of this ended up leading you to accept a different role outside the company. And some things fit about that role, but ultimately, some things did not fit too. So tell me a little bit about what happened. And what took you through that next evolution.

Erin Szczerba 22:37

Yeah. So working with my coach at Happen To Your Career, Alistair, we... Alistair helped me to see that I needed to be in some sort of client facing sales role. Everything that all my strengths, all of that add up to, you know, it's obvious. And then going through these exercises that I went through, I just could not deny that what I really wanted was to be working with clients in real estate every day. And that scared me because I had experienced financial insecurity before, I was a real estate agent during the market crash, it was a very difficult time. And I was in a place of financial security, which I was not willing to give up. And so Alistair worked with me on addressing the fear of the scarcity. And so like, what can I do to, like, Safeguard myself from these things that I'm afraid of. So that's no longer a fear of mine– doesn't have to be a fear. And I left it out, because like, the fear was real, you know, those are real things to be afraid of. But those don't have to be your reality. All of those things are solvable. So, you know, I was giving up benefits, I was giving up my health insurance, I was gonna give up my 401(k) match, and I have a son going into college, and then I was giving up my regular paycheck. So those things I worked through, and I figured out what to I need to feel confident about leaving Dell. And part of that was choosing a new brokerage, where I was able to get more service and support from my commission split that I would be paying it than I'd had previously. That was important to me as well. But I couldn't shake like I still had this "what if", like, surely this is just a reality that I'm going to be really slow in real estate and I'm not going to have any money and then I'm going to feel this way and my partner is going to be impacted and my gonna lose my relationship. I mean, that's like, that's the road going down– the spiral. And so when it came about that there was a position opening at this new brokerage that I had joined as an agent Success Manager, I was like, "Ooh, what's that?" And then I read the job description, and I was like, "Oh, that sounds perfect for me, actually" because it was, you know, continuing to produce, you know, sell real estate, while also helping agents to sell more, basically, business development with agents at the brokerage, I love to do. I love helping people. So it just seemed like such a, like a miracle felt like a gift from the universe here where I'm going to solve all your problems, you're going to have a regular salary, and you'll still be able to sell real estate and you're just going to be only in real estate, not, you know, one industry plus real estate. So I was hungry for that job. I was like, "I'm gonna get this job." And I did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:57

So you had your mind on this, and you went and got it. Because that's what you do. And that's honestly part of what you're great at. But also, it sounded like, there were some things since you got settled that really quickly, that weren't in alignment as well as you thought they would be. Tell me about that.

Erin Szczerba 26:15

Well, one of the things I did not think about, because I think I, you know, I had several different bosses at Dell, and some were a better fit for me than others. I'm sure I was a better employee for some of these bosses than some others and a worse employee. But I did not think about what I really needed in a leader or a manager. I made assumptions that certain qualities were there, based on what I knew about the brokerage and the services and the, you know, the competency of the agents. And I definitely... those assumptions led me to not be curious, not ask certain questions and move, just jump in with zero reservations. And then, yeah, I think I could say, it was not a good fit for either me or my leader.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:23

If you could go back and do it over again, what do you think some of the questions you would have asked? Or what would you have done additionally in order to understand more about that?

Erin Szczerba 27:34

Well, I think that I would have asked about, you know, what are the expectations of me as a worker? How do you like to work? Are you... it didn't occur to me, because you can't do this at Dell, right? Like, Michael Dell can't say, "I want all 150,000 of you to do everything the way I would do it." You can't become Dell Technologies if you do that, right? So I had never experienced that before. So I didn't actually know that it could be a thing. Knowing what I know now, I would have gone back and said, "What is the voice of the brokerage? And do I have the flexibility to bring my voice? Or do I need to do this all in a certain way?" Like, those are the things I know now that don't work for me, you know, any sort of restriction around that doesn't work for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:31

Well I think just getting to know you a little bit, you need that type of autonomy. I mean, we all as humans need some level of autonomy. However, what we need as individuals can be drastically different. And I think that's your own... one of the pieces at least of your own personal brand of autonomy that you need that creates much more fulfillment for you. So I can definitely see that and fully appreciate that. That's super cool that you know that now. So bring us full circle here. What caused you to decide, "Okay, you know what, I accepted this role. I went out and got it, I wouldn't did the thing that I'm great at, and it's not a fit." And you made that decision. We already know some of the reasons why it wasn't as great of a fit as what you were looking for. But what cinched the decision for you and then what did you end up moving to?

Erin Szczerba 29:28

Well, ultimately, the decision was made for me to leave that role. And I'm glad because I am not a quitter. So I was very determined to figure out how to make it work because there was so much in that role that the work of it that I really enjoyed. So I was very determined to figure out how to make it work even though I was growing more miserable by the day. And so then, I did have a choice after that. Okay, so I'm selling real estate and I was actively selling real estate when this happened. And I had a choice, do I just sell real estate? Or do I try to find something another sort of filler position? And I talked to, you know, several, very wise people about it, talk to Alistair about it. And the consensus was always the universe has shown you what you need to do. And you need to trust yourself, you're fully competent, you're great at it, it's real estate, you need to sell real estate. And it really was a mindset shift for me. You know, it really was a, I have to look... in order for me to do this, I have to look at the world in abundance. I can't be looking at the scarcity side. Because whichever one I'm focused on is what I'm wanting to get. And so I just really started thinking about what do I want my real estate business to look like. And that's what excites me. And now I get to think about, like, what's important to me is not selling the most real estate of anybody else in the area, I'm never going to do that. I'm not because I don't care that much about having huge sales. I would much rather make an impact on people who... because for me, selling real estate is easy. I've done it hundreds of times. But for the average person who doesn't sell houses every day, trying to figure out how to get from where they are to where they want to be, is really challenging. And it often feels overwhelming. And so they just don't do it. So if I can help people figure out how to get from where they are to where they want to be, and look at what are those obstacles, how do we overcome those obstacles– very much like what Alistair did with me when I was trying to figure out how to go from Dell to real estate, then I'm helping them do something that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do, and that's super fulfilling to me. And as long as I'm focusing on that, I'm going to have plenty. I'll have plenty.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:15

Do you feel like you would have had that mindset shift as quickly? Had you not gone through that set of experiences that we just talked about?

Erin Szczerba 32:24

Probably not, because having been thrust into that position is so much different than saying, "Okay, now I'm ready." I could potentially still be at Dell, you know? Because I just... it would just feel like, was now the right time to pull the trigger? I don't know, you know,

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:44

Roughly 20 years ago when I left an organization, not by my choice, as a regional manager, I spent so long going back and forth. I spent months and months and months and months, going back and forth. And eventually they decided for me, and I think it is, as crazy as it probably sounds to many different people, probably the best gift that they could have given me. I could still be at that organization today 20 years later, like fully unhappy in so many different ways. So I am very thankful for sometimes the weird ways that happens. And you called it the you know, the universe speaking to you. Also, I would say that in addition to that, sometimes it just becomes obvious to everyone else to, like, what your strengths and your gifts are. And sometimes we need a little extra nudge in so many different ways.

Erin Szczerba 33:36

Yeah, totally.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:37

I'm so happy for you that it worked out in this particular way. And I am thankful that we got the opportunity to help out in any part of that. And also, I am curious, what would you advise someone to do? Or what advice would you give for someone who's back in that situation where you were at with Dell, where you realized, "okay, this is not it for me. I know that I need to do something different. But..." you know, what is that? And, like, should I even fully commit to that direction? What advice would you give to that person who's there?

Erin Szczerba 34:19

I mean, I would definitely say that you've got to embrace that you don't know what you don't know. And that if you're feeling at all dissatisfied with where you're at or like maybe there's something more than you've got to go down every, you know, hallway and look at every nook and cranny to figure out what's your sweet spot. And it's so... I think it can be... we can get really small worlds in work, and we can have absolutely no clue what else is out there. And honestly, I mean, the truth, it's because I was listening to your podcast, and I just loved hearing people's stories that I realized like I can... there's something out there, that's the perfect fit for me. I don't know what it is, and I need some help figuring it out, but I believe I'm going to find that thing that's perfect for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:30

Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they want to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:34

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 36:53

I think the whole thing is a great evolution because I've always tried to tell myself that what I need to know to move forward is in each step.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:04

Many careers are made up of a string of mediocre jobs. And if you're a high performer, by the way, spoiler alert, if you're listening to this podcast, you likely are a high performer. But if you're a high performer, mediocrity can feel like prison. a prison with no doors, no windows and no escape. Okay, that's actually starting to sound more like a coffin. Anyhow, let me pivot to some great news. Just because you've only ever had mediocre jobs does not mean that's all there is out there. There's so much more. And there is a career that is the right fit for you that actually can help you be more happy more often and influence your level of fulfillment, happiness, Career progress doesn't mean knowing exactly what you want from day one of your career, and so many of us feel like we need to know that like all the time, so much pressure. Oh, and it doesn't mean we're necessarily working to climb the corporate ladder. Career progress is really taking your learnings from each of your roles, even the mediocre ones, determining what you enjoyed about each of them, what worked and using those experiences to build, what we like to call your ideal career profile. All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.