259: Help! I Feel Stuck In My Career

Katie 00:00
Right. It's just like, "Oh, this is just another day, you know, another day, another dollar, like, here we are, again, nine to five, and go home next day" and no one else ever tries to step up and improve themselves. Right. So to be in that kind of work environment, it's just kind of sometimes degrading.

Introduction 00:20
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44
If we go all the way back to Episode 243, which we call, six figure VP to $0. When you've had success, and now you don't. We actually let you be a fly on the wall when we aired a live coaching session with Robert, who was the VP, who was struggling to find work. In that episode, at the time when we aired it, we got so much feedback, people saying that they appreciated it and really loved hearing somebody else be able to work through what they were actually going through, the real things that they were actually going through, rather than just the version of that had happened afterwards. So we got so much feedback that we wanted to actually do it again. So we're going to. We're actually gonna let you listen to an actual coaching session that I did with Katie, a high achiever feeling as though she had nowhere to grow, nowhere to advance in her current company.

Katie 01:40
Yeah, I think one of the things would be to have more roles, responsibilities, you know, the suffering right now is pretty monotonous, and boring, essentially. So it'd be able to be challenged a bit more and have a responsibility to be able to, you know, I would create thinker to get to think outside the box, that sort of thing. And those chances do come up, you know, once every couple months. And I'm like, "Oh, I love that." They're like, "Oh, I don't happen to that for other few months."

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:04
That's Katie Kalchman. Katie's in activator, ready to make a change for career happiness, but she has a few hindrances standing in her way. And if you've ever felt like you've topped out in your growth at a role or a job or a company or a place in life, then you might have some things in common with Katie's story. Take a listen.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:27
So catch me up a little bit on the situation. Tell me, you know, how this came to pass? And then, what's currently going on?

Katie 02:36
Yeah. So, I’ve been working with my current company for just over two years now, I work in, like, medical devices, like, orthopedic racing, foot orthotics, all of that. So, it's definitely like a growing field but I've been working with a company for two years now. And about a year into working for the company, the owner of the small family run company, came to me and said, "I want you to go through this program to become a pedorthist, which means like making custom foot orthotics. It's a year program, it's online. So you can work full time and we're going to pay for your tuition." So I was like, "Okay, great." Tuition was totals about 10,000 dollars for the year. So, I've had to pay nothing at which that was great. And I'm just coming to... I just have one more exam to do to become certified. But what I realized is that, I don't want to stick with this company, essentially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:26
Oh, no.

Katie 03:27
Well, it's a great company to work for, it's very stagnant. Like, once I've done this, which is the next three weeks, so I'm kind of at my limit. Like I can't grow as a professional, grow my career much more than that. And I'm 25 years old. I know I'm better, essentially better than that. You can go a lot further. So I'm not happy in the company, I think I'm not challenged. There's like, my job is to see patients on and fit them to devices. And I just sometimes don't see any patients certain days, and I just sit there and do nothing. And it drives me crazy. So I feel like I want to exit, I want to find a new job to pursue, a different career path, but I feel obligated to stay because they've paid my tuition. So it's like I haven't signed a contract, I didn't sign anything saying, "I will stay for X number of years" or anything like that. I've not legally signed anything. And I actually have a job interview for a job next week that I'm really interested in. And I just don't know when and if I decide to leave, what's the best approach to doing so is without breaking down any relationships that too strongly, as you coming across as ungrateful, I guess.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:40
Yeah, and it sounds like if I'm reading between the lines correctly, it sounds like even though you're not excited about the company any longer and even though you are interested in moving on, it sounds like you're working with some people that you have enjoyed at least at one point and care about your success in one way or another.

Katie 05:03
Exactly. They're very good people and that's the thing is like I've known them. I did like placements with them in summers of University. So I've known them for quite a while and I just like they're good people, but it's just not right for me. So that’s the kind of situation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:15
That makes a ton of sense. So I completely understand why you feel that obligation. And also recognize that you can't ignore these other feelings, too. And it seems as though they're in conflict in some ways.

Katie 05:28
Yeah. I'm just unhappy. Like, I'm miserable every day at work, essentially. You know, no one wants to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:33
Yeah. So can I ask you a few questions about the situation then?

Katie 05:37
Yeah, sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:38
So, you know, when you say, "I'm pretty reasonably sure that I'm interested in leaving and I've even gotten a job interview this next week." How much do you know about what you want to be doing as your next step?

Katie 05:53
So that I don't really like I'm not like, "This is exactly what I want to do." I know, I want to like stay within the medical industry. So the company that I have an interview for next week, a friend of mine works there, and yes, he loves it, it's still within the medical field but it's more, I'm not sure if... they haven't in the states of Stryker, it's like a medical device company, it's worldwide, and it's an incredible company to work for. And their biggest thing is growth. And every time, every person I've ever talked to that's work there, loves it. So, you know, kind of was going into that as like, a stepping stone to see what could be next. So I don't know for sure exactly this is what I want to do. I don't have that, I guess, specific thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:35
Okay. What do you want most out of our time, today?

Katie 06:41
What I want is just like, I'm going to be leaving. So I know, I'm going to be just a matter of when is, you know, the most appropriate time to it, to do it. And when I do do it, what's the best approach? And what can I say? What shouldn't I say? And like, what's the best approach to discuss this, when I say, "You know what, I've been offered another job, I'm going to be leaving." So I wouldn't leave with if I didn't have another job lined up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:03
Okay. Why is that?

Katie 07:05
Well, just for job security, like, I'm not going to leave and not have another job to go back into.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:10
Totally okay. Everybody's got a different situation. But I wanted to make sure that I understand what your situation is. Is that primarily financial driven, or is that primarily something else?

Katie 07:19
Yeah, mostly. Mostly financial driven. And just because, you know, it's tough to get by nowadays without making any money. So and I don't know when the next job opportunity would then arise.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:29
Sounds good. Okay. So it sounds like one of the biggest reasons if I'm understanding correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but from everything that you've said, so far, Katie, it sounds like one of the biggest reasons that you're interested in leaving is, you don't believe that you're going to have the opportunity for growth beyond this. And it also sounds like your current daily duties are getting to the point where you're experiencing some boredom and a lot less challenges and a lot less desirability in one way or another, compared to you know, maybe when you previously started, am I perceiving those correctly?

Katie 08:08
Absolutely. It's just it's... I know I'm essentially ton... I'm smarter than things that I'm doing. I cannot challenged. Exactly. You got it right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:18
Sweet deal. So, here's my question then, you know you want growth, and that's something that many people are looking for, absolutely. That's something I think we all need as human beings in one way or another. I've also learned that growth looks completely different in what each of us individually need. So I'm curious, tell me a little bit about what you've thought about already, in terms of what growth means for you.

Katie 08:47
I think for me, it means just being able to, you know, efficiency challenged, I think, you know, learn new skills, you know, continuing education, which is one of the reasons why, you know, I took to this course, you know, it's another opportunity, it's another growth opportunity to learn new skills to, you know, obviously, salary increase, and, you know, financial compensation is a big part of, you know, it's why we work, right, we work to make money, so being able to, you know, be able to provide and have a stable living income. But definitely, I think, for me, I'm always... I'm very driven person. And I've always up for a challenge and you know, want to learn new things along the way, something that I'm interested and passionate about.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:30
So you've used the word stable a couple of times. What does that mean? When you say stable, what does that actually mean for you? And why is it that you actually want that?

Katie 09:39
I think just because you know, I'm at the point, I want to have a career, I don't want to be, you know, I've been out of school for four years now. So it's not like I've been working for years and years, but I want to be able to be with a company that I can see myself with long term, and be able to grow within that company and have, you know, a reputation and a spot in a company that I can see myself growth instead of like, you know, I have two jobs in the past four years but I want to, you know, see myself in future in that one company.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:08
In financial compensation wise, have already thought about what you want and what you need moving into the next role?

Katie 10:15
Yeah, so I've already had like, I had a phone interview with them yesterday, and we, you know, discuss that as well. And, you know, my job that I'm currently on, I, like, I'm not going to be making potentially... the potential that I want to be able to make, even if I stick it out for another five years they're just very, unfortunately, keep coming.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:33
So I'm sorry... I'm not sure I caught that totally. You said that, the new company has a higher ability to pay and the old company is...

Katie 10:44
Much higher.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:44
Okay. All right. What will you do with that? If you make much much more.

Katie 10:51
Buy a house. That's the goal. That's my boyfriend and I goal, that's our goal. And my current financial situation, like, it's gonna be years more before that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:01
Weird question. But why is it so important for you to buy a house? Totally cool. I've had a house. I bought multiple houses, absolutely love having a house, but it's different for everybody. So why is that important to you?

Katie 11:11
I think it's just, you know, to have something to call your own, to own something like I own a car. Right. But being able to have a place, you know, instead of renting or jumping from place to place every year or two, to be able to know, have a home and be able to call that place your home and not just, you know, pay rent, you know, and rents wastes money I find, but you know, today's economy, it's, you know, for shopping here in Canada, it's an affordable to buy houses.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:36
I have heard.

Katie 11:40
It was not bad.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:41
Yeah. Especially in the areas that it sounds like you're interested in. Yes. So I live in Moses, Lake Washington, and Moses, Lake Washington has the benefit of being very, very low cost of living, which is...

Katie 11:56
Oh, much little cost in there…

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:57
Yeah, it's got a lake. It's beautiful. 310 days a year of sun, but it's not for everybody. So the reason why I'm asking you a lot of the questions like this is, I really want to understand what it is that you want to move too, as well. And because here's a couple of things that I heard from you, I heard you say that, "I'm definitely not going to leave until I have another job." And I also know that you're interested, like there's several different big reasons here, why you're interested in leaving in the first place. And I know that one of the things that you want out of this is like the house, and what should I do in order to leave and emancipate yourself almost. But I also want to make sure that I understand deeply why you're leaving. And also what we're going to have you running too, as well. It is, I find almost 100% of the time when people are running from something, but don't really have a great situation that lines up for them, then they eventually regret the decision to leave or regret the decision to move to where they went to or find themselves in a different version of the same place, if that makes sense. So clearly, you're already thinking about that, and kudos for already thinking about that in the first place. And I want to make sure that we can flesh that out a little bit further, because that's going to have to do with how you end up leaving and how you communicate it. And all of those other pieces as well. Is that fair?

Katie 13:30
Yeah, for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:31
Cool. So a couple thoughts around that, aside from growth, and aside from, you know, the dream of owning something of your own, and aside from... and clearly, it seems like even though you want to experience growth, it seems like you are looking for stability in a variety of areas of life, it almost seems like... and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. It sounds like you want to get several areas of your life that you have felt like are up in the air for all intents and purposes, tied down so that you can focus on other areas of growth that you want to be and I might be perceiving that completely wrong. Please correct me where I've got it wrong.

Katie 14:12
No, that's something correct. And the thing is, like, right now I'm commuting to this job about 45 minutes each way, as well. So it's you know, two hours a day almost out of my day that to a job that I don't like.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:26
Yeah, which makes it feel like, 7hours a day too.

Katie 14:28
So which makes it, you don't wanna work, in a way. If it was a job that I love to do, yeah, no problem. Or if it's a job that, you know, I was five minutes away from home, I would be like, okay, you can, you know, maybe suck it up a bit more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:45
Yeah. Why don't want you to have to suck it up a bit more?

Katie 14:49
Me neither.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:50
Obviously, I'm a little biased, we run a company called Happen To Your Career and we help people not have to suck it up all the time. So I have a very biased view of this. But I don't think that you have to. I do really appreciate something, you know, one of the reasons why I was interested in talking to you about this in the first place about your challenger problem is because it was clear to me that you were interested in taking care of your current employer, even though it's not a great fit. And I think that is amazing. I wish there were more people in the world that were doing that in one way or another, even though you know, you're going to be leaving. So okay, a couple of thoughts here, and also a couple other questions along the way, so that we can get you what you're looking for out of this. Thought number one is, I recognize that there's this opportunity that is right in front of you that you're going to go and interview for, and could be potentially a good fit. What I think that is going to be beneficial for you is being able to make sure that you are even more fleshing out what it is that you really want and need out of this next role, to an even deeper degree from what you already have. And we can probably get some of that done on this call. But I think that that's going to be really, really important too. And I know that you have... I know that you followed us for a little while. Have you heard us talk about the ideal career profile?

Katie 16:21
I'm not sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:23
Okay, well think about it as almost a checklist of what you want and need to be more happy, more fulfilled growing more frequently. And think about it is, you know, creating your own personal checklist, to make sure that as you move into the next role, it has at a minimum, sum of those things that you want and need. So you don't find yourself in a different version of the exact situation where maybe you're getting paid more. But there's a ton of other ways that it just absolutely doesn't line up. And then you know, four months into it, six months into it, the honeymoon period wears off, you're like, "Oh, my goodness, what did I do?" I don't want that to happen for you. And that's part of the reason why I'm suggesting this in the first place. So we typically look at that in two different ways. We look at that from a minimum standpoint, in terms of, I'll just give you a couple examples here. And then we can relate them back to you. But part of that might be, you know, I know that if I'm driving more than 30 minutes to someplace day after day, it's going to drive me crazy, and there's going to be an expiration date for me, it doesn't matter how cool the job is, like eventually, that's going to wear off for me. I also know some really simple things for myself that if I'm working in a dungeon-ee type office where I don't have any exposure to sunlight, I'm gonna get super grumpy and like, so those are me, I'm a weirdo. And those are the things that I need. But what I want for you is for you to be able to figure out some of those exact same pieces, we know some of the money side. And I would encourage you to look ahead even a little bit further, you know, what are you going to be very interested in doing beyond the house? What is that going to look like as well. Houses, from owning the number of them over the years, always cost more than what you think they're going to in terms of maintenance and everything else. And then as you encounter other goals that also cost money, whether it be you know, saving for other future things or whatever else it might be, I want you to be able to include those in there too. So that you are thinking about the whole picture. So again, you don't find yourself in that other version. And I'm just using this as an example. But the overall point is, we can go through each area. And that's, by the way, that's something I can send you as an example of that ideal career profile so that you can go through for yourself and begin to say, "Okay, here's the type of environment I'm really interested in." Here's the ways that are most important to me to grow. Here are the types of people that I want to associate with, here is... and be able to go through each section. Does that make any kind of sense?

Katie 19:05
Yeah, for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:07
Okay, so hold that thought in the back of your mind here. And I'll send that to you right after this conversation. But then the other side of it, let's talk directly about this, why you're going to be leaving there and what that looks like. The relationship that you have with your boss or whoever is paying the bills, do you work directly with the owner of the company or how does that work?

Katie 19:30
Yeah, certain days. Yeah. So it's very tough. You have like 30 employees. And he's like the owner, like does all day on operations, essentially, but he will still be in my clinic once a week. So yeah, like direct contact.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:42
Okay. And it sounds like that's a 'he' and, is he the person who authorized, you know, paying for your additional education?

Katie 19:50
Yes. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:51
All right. Fantastic. And with that, what conversation have you had, or what implications were there? Or what was implied? Or was there anything implied? Or I know, you didn't sign anything, and I knew that, like, on paper on purpose, you didn't necessarily agree to anything. But were there additional unwritten or unsaid things that you're feeling? Help me understand what those are.

Katie 20:19
Yeah, I think it's essentially that, you know, his idea is that by getting the certification, it will create more revenue for his company. So by him investing in me, it's investing in the company to create more revenue for the company overall. So I'll be having to create more products, essentially. So I think that's his intention, as far as that... so I think it's his attention as well. I'm paying for your school, you know, you're gonna, you know, apply that schooling and create new... make more money, essentially. 'Cuz I didn't ask him anything, I didn't ask him to do it. He asked me to do it. And I'm not gonna say no to free education. You know, I've been there for a year like, "Okay, sounds good." And I know, and like, I don't know if this really matters, but I know that they did get some funding through the government as like an apprenticeship for my tuition. I don't know how much of it, it was the full thing or part of it, but I do know, they got some funding from the government.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:22
So why else are you feeling... helped me understand why else you feel this deep obligation here? See if you can put some of that into words for me.

Katie 21:34
Because they have invested in me, you know, I'd pretty much... because I'd worked for this company, previously, in like, summers, it's been like some student work. They had an opening essentially went out of their way to contact me for the job. So they said, "Katie, we want you to work for us if you're willing to work for us." And I was gonna go back to school for nursing, actually. And I said, "Well, I might as well take the job. But if I want to go back to nursing another sem, I can't." So I kind of put those plans on hold, took the job, and you know, like that, and then just kind of got into it saying, okay, they're paying my school great. This is awesome. But now that I'm done school, I'm just like, this is not what I wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:13
This is not as awesome.

Katie 22:15
This is not as awesome as I thought it was going to be. And you know, I'm loyal to a fault, I think is one of my problems with I'm loyal to a fault in a way. And I just don't want to, you know, I've known this guy, the owner for, you know, 10 years. And I just would feel, you know, not only like as an employer, but like, as a friend to kind of say, "Thanks. See ya!" I just feel bad. But I know what sometimes you have to be selfish and look out for yourself. And that's where I'm kind of at the point in that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:46
Well, I definitely agree that you do have to be able to take care of yourself. It doesn't always have to be selfish, necessarily. And I think that there's very often ways that we can do both. So let me ask you, let's go for a hypothetical question here. I know you're planning on leaving. But let's say for just a second that you weren't, and if you were in some other hypothetical universe to stay, what specifically would have to change if you could just like wave your magic wand and don't like, try and keep all the restrictions and the reality, and everything out off of your head for just a second here, and in this other hypothetical universe, what would have to change for you to be like, "Oh, my goodness, I would just keep on going."

Katie 23:38
Yeah, I think one of the things would be to have more roles, responsibilities, you know, the suffering right now is pretty monotonous, and boring, essentially. So it'd be able to be challenged a bit more and have a responsibility to be able to, you know, I would create thinker to get to think outside the box, that sort of thing. And those chances do come up, you know, once every couple months. And I'm like, "Oh, I love that." They're like, "Oh, I don't happen to that for other few months." So there are parts about it that I do enjoy. So just being able to have more, be able to really be able to act my whole potential.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:12
What's an example of one of those that popped up where you're like, "Oh, this is awesome!"

Katie 24:16
So we work directly with like, surgeons like orthopedic surgeons and plastic surgeons. So your surgeon will come to us and say, like, "Hey, I have this like, difficult patient, like, who needs this type of device. Like, can you do it?" I'm like, "Whoa, I don't know. Like, give me kike a few hours, and I'll let you know." And then it's plenty no, wrack my brain what I have to work with and then come up with a solution, and then end up working for the patient. And everyone's, you know, I'm happy with the results and patients happy because all the doctors happy with the results. So being able to really creatively think and apply, you know, mind knowledge is something that, you know, just not a typical thing is I really, really enjoy, like a little bit of innovation, kind of creativity. And that's what I love. And that's, that happens once every couple of months.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:03
Okay. What else would have to change? Clearly the compensation, that would be a big thing is what I'm perceiving to accomplish some of your other goals here. How much would that need to change? Talk to me specific numbers for how much like...

Katie 25:18
Quite a bit. So like, the only reason I'm getting a raise, I've been there for two year. The only reason I'm getting raised is because of my new certification. So I've done a lot other... taking on other roles outside of my job description. And then a lot more time to promote the company to market the company, within the community. And the only reason I'm getting that raises because my certifications. And so it's just kind of like, it's, you know, it's kind of a reflection of like, you only value me, you don't really value me anywhere else, in a way. And I know, just talking to my co workers who've been there for, you know, over five years, they've been promised raises, they're never gotten, you know, not even getting any raises, even asking for them. They're like, "No, no, no." So they're, unfortunately cheap, in a way, for their employees. And all my other employers that I work with are pretty much like, they're going to be there for the rest of their lives. Like they're settled, and that's what they're going to do forever. And people complain... they complain all the time, but they don't do anything about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:26
Don't get me started on that. That's another...

Katie 26:27
I don't want to be one of those people. You know what I mean? I don't want to be one of those. And so, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:34
So when you say that, are you also saying that some of that culture would have to change to?

Katie 26:42
Yeah, it's not a very... like the owner, my boss is very, very forward thinking. He's very, like, what's next thing we could do as a company, but everyone else I work with is just kind of goes to the post of the ropes every day. So you know, having that like that kind of direct, you know, influence in a workday day to day doesn't motivate me, right? It's just like, "Oh, this is just another day, you know, another day, another dollar, like, here we are, again, nine to five, and go home next day" and no one else ever tries to step up and improve themselves. Right. So to be in that kind of work environment, it's just kind of sometimes degrading.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:22
Okay, what else would have to change? That's amazing, by the way.

Katie 27:27
I don't know, to be honest, like...

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:29
Well, you've got a magic wand here. So you might as well waving around.

Katie 27:32
I know. Like, it's not that bad. You know what I mean? It's not like, it's terrible. Just I don't think the right to me, could be great for somebody else who this is, you know, content and satisfied. But I think if anyone were to just tell you to describe me as like a person, like personality around is like, I'm a go getter. And I just don't feel that like, I can go get him where I am right now. And I don't want to be stuck there for potentially longer than I have to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:59
Yeah. So it have to be some pretty big changes is what I'm perceiving from that. In this alternate universe where, like, literally, the entire culture would have to change to where you are surrounded by other go getters. You are, I'm gonna use the word empowered, but that's not quite what I'm looking for it but essentially, like empowered in your setup to be able to, go get him.

Katie 28:27
And the thing is, though, is like I've told my boss that you know what, I'm, like, bored. I've told them like "I'm bored, give me things to do." I've told like, the owner, that mediate boss and one of the managers saying like, "I'm bored, how can I help? Give me something to do." And nothing's happened. So I've verbalized with them. Suddenly, like, I'm not happy. I mean, I'm bored. I'm not challenged. And I've gotten nothing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:54
Yeah, usually you won't. Not because, yeah, not because he's a bad person. But I mean, I've owned a number of businesses over the years, and I've been in many, many leadership roles. And that's... it's hard to know what to do with that. So it's completely different than if you went in and had asked him, "Hey, you know, here's what I'm looking for. I had a ton of fun with this project here the other day where the surgeon called me, I got to wrack my brain. I got to creatively think and apply and innovate here for exactly what I'm doing. I want to do that for, you know, seven of my eight hours a day. And right now I'm spending a ton of time where I'm not doing anything much of the time, I'm not feeling challenged, I am looking specifically for other projects. Here are three of them that I thought that might be a great fit for your business, and also would be a ton of fun for me to work on. Which of these, do you think that would be, you know, actually a great fit for you too, that you'd be excited for me to take the reins and be able to lead on?" That's a completely different type of request. Does that make sense how that could be different? That's something that you're, not just this boss, but future boss and future leaders who can do something with because when you go in and this is not intended to call you out or anything along those lines, I'm only going into it because I want you to go into the next role too, and be able to get what you want and get what you need. And when you ask for specifically what you want, and when you do so in a way that is helpful to the other person, so they don't have to do all the extra work, then you'll find that miraculously you get exactly what you want. And they look at you as like their star performer. Does that make any kind of sense at all?

Katie 30:54
Yeah, for sure. That sounds like a good idea.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:57
So definitely, you know, no matter where you're at, the more that you can... You want to always be looked at as a top performer. That's an easy way to be able to make that happen, make it easy on the other person to give you exactly what you want and help them at the exact same time. But I'm only going into that for detail for just a second just because I want you to be able to have that going forward. And it's going to be relevant to this conversation too, that you're going to have. And it might even be a series of conversations. So let me articulate back to what I heard from you really quick. So I heard that the big disconnects here are that you're not really being challenged very frequently at all. It's like every couple of months, where you're getting a challenge. And I also heard on the flip side of that, but one of the biggest things that you're looking for is to be able to experience growth by being challenged. Is that right?

Katie 31:53
Absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:53
Okay, so that means that, basically four months at a time, you're not getting exactly what you feel you need most, which is not a surprise you're not having fun. But that's thing number one. Thing number two I heard is that your financial goals don't appear to align with what you're currently being paid out.

Katie 32:13
Correct.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:14
And well, you know, that may fit for that business model. I don't know, maybe he doesn't have a lot of margin, I have no idea what his business model is at all. Maybe he's paying you the very, very top that he can pay. I have no idea.

Katie 32:26
He may very well be but it doesn't mean it's not the right fit for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:29
Yeah, if it doesn't align, it doesn't align. Absolutely. So, you know, that's a really big disconnect. And there's this huge element of the culture too. Like, you want to be in a place where you are not just being challenged, but also... or you can take it and you can run with it. And you're around other people that are doing that too.

Katie 32:54
Better like minded. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:55
Yeah. And right now, what you're experiencing is that, you know, all of the employees, and not all, but some of the employees at a minimum, complain about their situation and complain about not being paid enough and complain about not, you know, having a great situation, but they don't really do anything about it. And that's not the type of people that you are interested in surrounding yourself with on a daily basis.

Katie 33:18
You got it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:18
Okay. So, also, you have this long term goal, or you want it not to be too long term, to be able to own a house. And that's something that's really, really important to you. And additionally, you're spending a pretty significant amount of time commuting. That adds up to well over an hour and a half each day. So it sounds like on top of that, you also very much have appreciated the opportunity, appreciate it that, you know, that he was investing in you, but feel like for all of these reasons, no longer aligned. Am I getting this stuff right or what would you change or add? Okay.

Katie 33:59
You got it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:59
Okay. Could you tell him exactly that? Because I just... I took your words and just show them back with you.

Katie 34:07
I don't know... I think it's, to be honest, too far gone.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:12
Too far gone in what way? What do you mean?

Katie 34:15
In the way that like, I don't know if anything that he could do now would make me want to stay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:19
I think that's okay. I think you could share that too.

Katie 34:22
So and that's the thing is like I would, I guess, plan or how I could see things unfolding is this job that I'm interviewing for is, I know that pays more, it's a 10 minute drive from my house, it has room for growth. I know people work in the company, they only have good things to say about it. It's been ranked one of the top countries in the world, as you know, best employers is to kind of go to him, and say, "Listen. I'm not happy. These are reasons why. I've had the job opportunity." But I just don't know how he's gonna react since he'll say, "Well, I just pay for your schooling." And the schooling that I've gone through is not even applicable to the job I've made to be moving into.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:07
Totally agree. So let me back up half a step here. So one of the things that I heard you say at the very beginning, is that "I don't want to burn bridges." And I, you didn't say exactly this, but my impression was that you wanted to get, you want it to be able to have the conversation in a way where it would allow him to understand and create the most productive situation coming out of it as you leave the role.

Katie 35:40
I just want to do it right. Essentially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:42
Okay. So if you...

Katie 35:43
It's like under respectful, do it right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:45
Absolutely. So I think the most respectful way that you can do this, as you are having that conversation at whatever point in time with him, that you share the exact same things, the truth with him.

Katie 36:00
And I would.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:01
And so all of these pieces, I think, are really important for him to know and understand. And all of these pieces are exactly how you feel about it. And all of these pieces are the real reasons why you would be interested in leaving. And I think that when you don't share those, then that's going to be higher likelihood that it dissolves into a bad situation, or bad feelings or other things along those lines. When you don't share those, then it is higher opportunity to build the bridge or burn the bridges. When you do share those, then that creates a more trusting situation, I think the most trusting situation could be though, if you went to him sooner rather than later before you even had a job offer and shared some of these things too. Which might not always be the most comfortable situation. However, if you want to create a good situation out of the outcome. And that's something that is really important to you, then you have to set the other person up for a good situation, too. It doesn't work one way like, you know, like, drop a good situation on the other person. And like at the last minute necessarily, you have to create a good situation in every sense of it. So let's talk through part of that and how that could be possible. And it may not be but let's try and spend a couple of minutes here and try and determine how this could look and how this could be a real possibility to make it the best possible situation for you and him. Okay, so I know that you are... I can tell in your voice that you're looking at this other job as the out.

Katie 38:01
Yeah, and I'm still like, I'm not putting all my eggs in this basket either. Like, I'm still seeing what's out there. But it's really just come on so fast. Like I saw the job opportunity, I know a friend who works there, he sent my resume and they're like, "Want a phone interview. Can you come in next week?" So it's all happening really fast. I didn't expect it to happen this fast. So I'm just kind of trying to prepare to say, and when I talked to them yesterday, I said, "When is your anticipated start date?" And they said "We don't know yet. It could be like..." so I'm just kind of trying to prepare if it happens sooner than later. Because I didn't expect this to happen so fast. And it just kind of happened help that we have planned our conversation for today. So I thought that was you know, I believe things happen for reasons and I thought that was pretty ironic that how our conversation played out. So yeah, I'm like really seriously taking this opportunity, to take this job as a potential opportunity seriously.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:00
My experience is also that, especially when you go looking for it, you can probably find other opportunities just as fast as well. It's crazy thing once you start putting your effort and time and energy into going after something and you're more of a go getter as you said anyways. So like when you go get, you're gonna start getting is what will happen. So, you know, I come back to that because I want to make sure that, again, we don't have you end up in this role only because it looks like a really good thing without actually validating that it is in fact, a great thing. Plus this impacts, I think, how and when you talk to your current boss. What would you see as the... or what hesitancy would you have in going and having a conversation with him tomorrow to raise some of these issues?

Katie 40:04
I don't know. I just hasn't this would be like, just being a bad taste in his mouth. I guess, I know I would be disappointing him, but just, I guess that's kind of it. Like, I know, he can have a temper. I don't want to do like losers shit, essentially. But I don't know, I think I'll just be like, I've told him that I was, like I've said I'm, you know, I'm bored. I want to be challenged more sort of thing. But I just think the fact that I'm still technically finishing up this course, is my biggest thing is that I'm not like, I have three more weeks, I've done my school, I've one more certification exam left. So I think the fact that I'm still in it, but this was like, you know, six months after I've been done it, I think it would have been a bit different.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:49
Because he already paid for it. Like it's, the bill already been paid...

Katie 40:53
Yeah, like tuition been paid and everything. Yeah. So that's what I do, like if I would approach him and say, you know, I'm so grateful, thankful for, you know, the investment, like, do I offer. It's like they don't want me to pay for it. I don't want to, you know what I mean? But like, do I offer some sort of compensation to him?

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:10
What would it take for you to feel really good coming out of this conversation, no matter what like...?

Katie 41:16
I think just some saying, like, he knows me really well. I think him just saying, "You know what Katie, I completely understand where you're coming from, I can see that." sort of thing and being like, "I'm proud of you. But like, I'm happy for you, wherever the road takes you sort of thing." You know what I mean, in terms of your career growth, but I don't think he's gonna say that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:36
What are the reasons you perceive that may not?

Katie 41:39
Because he's paid for my schooling. I think he'd be like, pissed, essentially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:45
Was that because you'd be pissed?

Katie 41:47
No. I think he would be because he spend all this money on me. And I'm not even going to be able to give back to the company with my newfound certification.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:58
If you left tomorrow, will you feel good about leaving the company? Let's say that you had the perfect opportunity, bla bla bla. Will you feel good at leaving at that point?

Katie 42:09
To be honest, at this point? I'd feel good about leaving. Yeah. I feel bad, in a sense of like, essentially them wasting their money on me. I kind of feel bad, but I am at the point that I would not feel bad about leaving now. They definitely treated me very well. Tell you the truth, but it's just not the right fit for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:28
Yeah, totally.

Katie 42:29
Right. It's nothing against them. And that's the thing. It's not you, it's me, essentially. Situation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:36
Yeah. And we know how good that feels.

Katie 42:39
Yeah, exactly. So that's... If I don't know, I wouldn't, really.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:44
Part of what I'm trying to get at here is there are some deep seated reasons here why this was a thing for you. Why originally, you contacted us in the first place, right? And I want to make sure that I'm getting all of them for you so that we can create a situation where it is most likely to result in what would allow you to feel good on all fronts. And so that's probably the reason why I'm kind of going around and asking for every angle on this particular type of questioning. When you say he has a temper, what do you mean by that?

Katie 43:22
Like he can, like he will... like if something doesn't go his way, or if he's not one of his mood to get sense, he will like, he's ever not yelled at me. But he's yelled at my receptionist before. Like, just lost it. And she didn't do anything wrong. It was just this thing with a patient wasn't happy. This is situational. He wasn't in a good mood and just kind of freaked out on her.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:45
This is a frequent thing or like one thing?

Katie 43:49
Not frequent, but it's been known to happen more than once, was not a one off.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:54
For other types of you know, I would call it more like conflict type situations that you had with him.

Katie 44:00
No, I've never had any conflicts. No.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:02
Okay. Here's a couple thoughts that I have. I think that he's going to feel the best if you can set him up the best for what he need. So I don't know if, like what would happen if you left here? What would... like how would that change his world? Like where's he going to have to like compensate? Is he gonna have to work additional hours, like are there other people on the team? Like how is this going to impact the world?

Katie 44:31
To be honest, like, I don't really know, because like, I'm not that busy. Like, it's not like I'm... sometimes like today, for example, I obviously like I stepped out today in a doctor's appointment to talk to you. But like, I'm seeing one person in nine hours today. So like, I don't like he probably would have hired somebody maybe part time, I would think, but it's not like I'm swamped, and he relies on me for that much. I feel.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:57
So if you left then like other people, there are other people there to take on that load.

Katie 45:04
Yes, there are. They wouldn't be happy about it. But there would be, yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 45:07
Okay. So it's not like he would have to immediately train somebody do and all business would stop or...

Katie 45:15
No, like, they want to hire somebody new, but they could get by.

Scott Anthony Barlow 45:21
Is there anything else that would be a big deal? I don't know, like, just the whole education thing. I think that there is probably a little bit of a risk that it could be, you know, a big issue if you went and had a conversation, and he could perceive it wrongly, I don't perceive that risk is super, super high based on everything that you've told me. But may I share what I would do if I were in your shoes for just a minute? And then from that we can figure out what is the plan that makes sense for you in your world. Does that sound good?

Katie 46:00
Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 46:01
Okay, so here's what I would do if I were found myself and woke up in your shoes. And I think initially, well, let me ask you one more question here really quick, for the remaining time that you're there, would you prefer to be doing things that are more interesting while you're there? Or would you prefer to just suck it up and go?

Katie 46:25
I think probably a suck it up and be honest with you. I can't see myself laughing more than six months there without mentally going insane. 'Cuz I already have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 46:36
I think I would go and I would have this conversation with him initially, and be able to share, you know, here's what I've been experiencing; I really, really appreciate all the time that I spent here. And I really appreciate you investing in me. And I really appreciate all of the things that have come along with that. Also, at the same time, I'm finding that, you know, what I've shared with you in the past is that I'm bored. I am not experiencing the challenges that I'm interested in experiencing. And I wanted to come and talk to you about that. Also, because I'm trying to figure out what I should be doing to resolve that. And I wanted to be upfront and honest with you about that, because I appreciate how much you have, you know, how much you have done for me. And I also know that I can't keep doing this over the long term in the exact same way. So I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to be doing about that, and wanted to be able to share that with you and have a direct conversation. Now, this doesn't mean I'm leaving tomorrow or anything like that. It does mean I'm trying to consider what would be right for me. So I felt like if I owned the business, and I had worked with somebody for quite a while and everything that I would want somebody to come to me and talk about this too, and share how they're feeling so and the reasons why. So I'm more than happy to have any other conversation or answer questions or anything else along those lines. However, you know, that's what I'm feeling right now. And I've recognized that I need to do something differently. I do not know what that is at the present moment. But...

Katie 48:47
But something has to change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 48:48
But something has to change. And that's part of what I'm working on to figure out. So that's what I wanted to share with you and I'm more than happy to keep you posted along the way as I figure out some of that stuff. But right now, you know, this is what I would have appreciated if I were running the business and what I would want somebody to come to me and talk about. And that's the type of conversation that I would have. I don't think it would make sense to say "Hey, I'm going to leave in two months or something" like because you don't even know that. That's not the real truth. Like and I don't want you to, even though you would like to leave sooner rather than later, like it's not truthful to tell him that, "Look, I'm out of here" Because you don't know when or exactly where or how so I think you can share what is in fact, the truth. Yeah.

Katie 49:42
So like, let's say, though, like this job that I'm currently applying for says to me, "Hey, we want to offer you the job. Can you start, you know, in a month?" Like honestly, I wouldn't say like... I would say, "I have to think about it." I wouldn't say yes, right on the spot. But in that case, I'll have to think about it. And let's say I decide, yes, I want to do and I have not yet had that conversation with him.

Scott Anthony Barlow 50:07
For one, you definitely call us back up, and we help you negotiate for the new role and everything like that.

Katie 50:17
Yeah. Because like, it's there seem to be like going quite quickly with it. So I don't know, you know, what I mean? How quick it's all gonna happen, if it does.

Scott Anthony Barlow 50:26
Yeah, I think that, and again, this is assuming you had this conversation like tomorrow. And, by the way, if he did that, at any point in time, I think that the way that you do that is you contact him and say, "Hey, I have something really important that I want to talk to you about." And you actually schedule a time. So you're not interrupted by stuff and all of those types of things. So you can actually have an important conversation without, I don't know him taking seven phone calls or whatever else he needs. But you know, whenever that takes place, I think you share whatever the most current version of the truth is, at that point in time, if they've made you a job offer at that point in time where like they have given you like real salary and everything like that, and it looks like it could be a good fit, then I think it's appropriate to share with him. But if you learn...

Katie 51:11
"Listen, I've had a job opportunity."

Scott Anthony Barlow 51:13
Yeah, absolutely. And you can say that. I've got, you know, I've had another job opportunity that I'm considering right now, I don't know if it's the right fit, I haven't accepted it. But I wanted to be very upfront and honest with you that I was even, you know, even considering something else. And I think that's how the conversation gets adjusted. And then later on, I think, as you know more truth, you have additional conversation with him, about, you know, what you're moving to, and as you figure out more of what you need too, then I think you can be more transparent with him about that as well, that's going to help him. And then I think before you leave, if you can share with him some of those other pieces, too. I don't think it's relevant in this first conversation, necessarily. But I think it's a big part of it, and would be useful for him to understand that, hey, part of the reason why I'm leaving is because many other people here, you know, feel like they're underpaid, they complain about stuff. And they don't really do anything about it. And although that's fine for them, and they seem to be reasonably happy doing that, that's not something that I'm interested in being surrounded by over the long term. And I think that you can be very transparent with him, because as a business owner, I know, I'd want to know about that. So I can actually do something about it, as well. So I think that, that sets you up for both ways. If you don't have another job offer or anything else, then obviously you don't have that piece of the conversation. But as you get another job offer, I think you do him the courtesy to wrap back around and continue to share more and more. And I think that that's the best way to have the highest chance for this to come out where he has still has a really high degree of respect for you. And although he may not like the decision, he can still feel good about how it was resolved, as opposed to even if he's not excited about, you know, I just dumped a bunch of cash into you, and now you're going. But part of that is the risk that you take as a business owner, as well, that you acknowledged.

Katie 53:20
Right, exactly. But he don't have to do it. I didn't ask him to do it. He offered, which is very generous. obvious.

Scott Anthony Barlow 53:25
Yeah, absolutely. Does that help you by the experience for you and a plan for you to make that happen?

Katie 53:36
Yeah. It's kind of ironic that I actually have this opportunity coming up, but when I didn't, I would, I was, you know, planning on having a conversation, I think with him anyways, just, you know, the best way to go about it, essentially. Now my one question is, for you, as you know, with this interview that I have next week, if they ask for references, I can't really give them my current employer because they have no idea that I'm applying for any job or have an interview.

Scott Anthony Barlow 54:04
I found... and obviously, I'm a little biased in a lot of different ways. But I found for myself, that's one of the big benefits to having these types of conversations as soon as you're feeling like you leave where you can have an open conversation where your employer is maybe even supporting you in going someplace else. I've done that a lot of times personally, and we've helped many hundreds of people do that in ways where they didn't think it was going to be possible and we're super nervous about it. My experience is that typically the benefits of having a conversation like this with him, even if you don't have all the information sooner rather than later usually outweigh the risks. Not always. And that's part of the reason why I was asking about the, you know, temper and everything like that. I don't perceive that there is a massive risk here. There's a little bit.

Katie 54:51
Yeah, I don't know, I just think... like my interviews on Tuesday, like a series of interviews on Tuesday, and I'm like, at the call and set to work in order to go to this interview, because I think he would not be pleased to know that I'm interviewing somewhere. Like, I don't think... I mean, I just don't know very well. Like it just because it's so short notice.

Scott Anthony Barlow 55:14
Yeah. I don't know whether it would be or not. My experience is that in order to be given grace, you have to give other people trust and grace to be able to have the opportunity to be read as well. So that's something that I can't decide for you.

Katie 55:30
Yeah, no, of course, I just wasn't sure what your experience in it is.

Scott Anthony Barlow 55:35
My experience for myself, and for a number of the other people that you know, I've worked with personally is that I usually look at it in terms of like, what am I going to feel good about at the end of the day. For me, that has always resulted, and this doesn't necessarily mean it is for you, but it has always resulted for me personally, in sharing much more than I'm comfortable with the other parties. And typically, that's my boss or my boss's boss, and taking, in many cases, much larger risk with that type of level of sharing. And it allows me personally, to be able to sleep at night for my own benefit. But those are things that I get tied up in for myself and my own personal expectations. And what I do isn't necessarily right for everybody.

Katie 56:32
Of course, like I have another like, reference I could work, or reference I could use but obviously, it's not to be like I worked there part time, but it's not my current main employer. Essentially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 56:45
References usually aren't that big of a deal. Honestly. You know, there are certain industries where it's a huge deal and certain people, where it's a huge deal. But most of the time...

Katie 56:55
It's not that big of a deal.

Scott Anthony Barlow 56:56
Where you could have a conversation say, look, I think that, you know, my current employer...

Katie 57:01
And I feel honest with them

Scott Anthony Barlow 57:02
Yeah, exactly.

Katie 57:03
Yeah, be honest.

Scott Anthony Barlow 57:04
Honesty is the best policy.

Katie 57:05
And saying is that that's my plan was to say, like, my current employer does not know that I'm applying for this job. So therefore, that's reason why I can't give you but I have another employer I've worked for years that would be able to provide your reference. And the reason they got my resume was through a reference was through one of their current employers. So technically, that kind of works as a reference in itself. Right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 57:26
Sure. I would place less talk in that. Generally, references are, I don't have a easy way to put it, I guess. But generally, references are like a stupid people check. Because everybody who's going to put down a reference is going to put down somebody good unless they're just, I don't know... No concept. So... does that help?

Katie 57:51
Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 57:51
Okay. Did we hit what you originally wanted out of this time?

Katie 57:55
I think so. I feel a lot better. I think for me, going into this interview on Tuesday. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:01
Amazing.

Katie 58:02
Is that how to approach and whatnot, and I don't think I'll get the chance to see because usually Tuesdays are the days that I do see him anyways, and I have to, "call in sick" for this interview, which I feel bad about doing, but I don't really have another option.

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:18
Well, you could call him today and set up a, you know, half an hour to have that discussion. sooner rather than later. And then...

Katie 58:26
Yeah, I could try it for Monday, maybe. Depends what his schedule is like, though.

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:30
Yeah. I'm sure if you said it's important, that my experience is that people will make time for you when you declare, it's important. "Okay, I really have something that's important for me to talk to you about. That would take about 30 minutes of your time. Is there any way we can find any minutes between now and Monday? What could look like for you?"

Katie 58:53
Yeah, I was put a sense of urgency on it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:56
Absolutely. Well, it is important.

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:59
Hey, let us know what you thought about that session with Katie, that opportunity to be a fly on the wall with an actual coaching session. And email us: hello@happentoyourcareer.com and let us know what you thought. But there's one more piece of the story too, because it's been a little while since Katie and I talked. And a few weeks after that, she actually sent me an email. Here's the email, she said, "Hey, Scott, I just wanted to update you since we talked a couple of weeks ago. I took your advice and I talked to my boss, telling him how I wasn't enjoying work, wasn't challenged enough, etc. And it could not have gone better. He's actually recommended me for a job as a sales rep for one of our suppliers. That is a more challenging, more involved position. He realizes that the position I'm now in his company does not have longevity and room for me to continuously grow and I now have a job interview with that other company. I just wanted to thank you for all your advice and help. Thanks, Katie." This stuff with your career is messy, it's emotional, it is a little bit scary at times. And it's something that, quite frankly, you shouldn't have to go through alone. So I really hope that that call, listening to Katie and her situation in being able to work through that, and also even seen some of what happened in the end, because if you remember, she was actually quite a bit, shall we say, not excited to go and have that type of conversation with her boss. And she found the courage and she did it. And clearly it's paid off for her. And that's very much what we see along the way, being willing to have that kind of vulnerability and seek out help. And being able to do it in a way that is going to be productive and honest and live within your values and your integrity. We see very, very, very few times, where that ends up being a negative. In fact, we see so many more stories when we work with people like Katie, where it comes out as a huge positive. And by the way, listening to this type of call, or the one that we did with Robert, back on episode 243, that should give you an accurate picture of how my team can help you identify career desires. And then use what we know about psychology, what we know about careers to help you take your best steps forward. And if you want to live your best life, you can always go at any point in time over to happentoyourcareer.com, click on coaching, tell us more about your situation, and schedule a call with our team, our Director of Success for Students and Clients. And we'll help you figure out the very best way that we can help. But just like Katie, you know, I think the more that you find those ways to be able to be honest, and be able to live within your own values and not ignore that and not push that aside, even though it's scary. And regardless of whether you're working with us, we're working with anybody else or just, you know, seeking out a mentor or something else, get that type of help, because this stuff doesn't come easy. And it's always much, much more like a marathon than a sprint. We have so much more coming up in store for you. Next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Mo Chanmugham 1:02:30
Status and money just don't bring you the happiness that you think it would. And I think a lot of people have to learn that lesson first. So they can then go on and past that fulfilling job is going to be a much better fit and much more enjoyable.

Scott Anthony Barlow 1:02:43
That's Mo Chanmugam. He is a coach on our team here at Happen To Your Career. He's going to join us next week to be able to answer a whole bunch of your questions. And he's got a really interesting story himself. Until next week, we'll see you later. Adios. I am out.