524: Taking Control of Your Career When It’s Harming Your Mental Health

Aaron 00:01

I was driving home one day and it's like, "Man, I would rather die than go in tomorrow."

Introduction 00:11

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:36

If you've listened to this podcast or read the Happen To Your Career book, then you know the reason behind why I do what I do. The reason why I started HTYC and the reason why I started this podcast is because I was once where many of the people who you've heard on the show come to find themselves negatively affected by work with no idea how to escape. My commute was three hours a day, my work schedule was 70 to 80, sometimes 90 hours per week. I didn't really have weekends, I didn't really have time off. I didn't really get to see my wife. It was, shall we say, not great. Well, okay, fast forward past the point in time where I began self medicating with food, gained a ton of weight, and seriously considered jumping out a window. Then I realized that work can be unhealthy for so many of us. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to be. If you're stuck in a job that is making you miserable or negatively affecting the rest of your life, you don't have to let it control you. You can make the decision right now to start taking steps to a work that fulfills you and allows you to be more happy more often.

Aaron 01:47

All of the stories that you're telling yourself about what can go wrong if you do something, in all likelihood, the worst case is where you're at.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:57

That's Aaron. He had been in construction management for just about 10 years, and he was miserable. See, Aaron had graduated from law school and passed the bar. But jobs in that field were not very easy to find at the time. So although it wasn't his first choice, he decided to go into the family business of construction. But here's what happened after many years of working in a job that he didn't quite align with. Aaron found himself in the same place that I was all those years ago, contemplating some scary things if it just meant that he could get out of work for a while. And to make things worse, this wasn't any old job that he felt like he could just quit, it was his family's business and his negative feelings about work and life left him feeling like he was failing his family at home and at work. Aaron finally had the realization that maybe he never really gave himself a chance to see if he enjoyed law, and that he deserved that chance. I want you to pay attention to how he worked up the courage to talk to his boss, who just happened to be his dad, about needing to step away from the business for the sake of his family and mental well being. And you're also going to hear Aaron talk through the work that went into him deciding that it was time to take agency over his career. And how he decided if law was really the right career for him.

Aaron 03:19

I really didn't have an idea of what I was going to do with my life. I went to college thinking I was going to be a doctor. And that was more about the status, what have you. And then I discovered I wasn't great at school. So my dad had a hard conversation with me about, you know, "These won't get you into med school. So you kind of need to figure out what's next." And he owned-operated a pretty successful construction company at the time. And I guess it's kind of like, "Well, I know that you would enjoy working with me." And he had expressed that, I wasn't just placing myself there. But it's like, "Okay, well, I'll do this. I'll take over the company when you retire." And so then floated through undergrad. And then I think, my sister, I don't remember the first interest, but my sister took the LSAT or got into law school and I was like, "Oh, well, anything you can do, I can do better. I'm gonna get into a better law school than you."

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:17

Were you and your sister slightly competitive?

Aaron 04:19

I don't think she ever competed with me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:23

It's a one-way competition.

Aaron 04:24

Yeah. Like she was valedictorian at her high school. I wasn't. So that type of thing. And, you know, it's like, I got to do this. And so, there's also an econ and finance major. I entered that in 2008. So great timing for finance. So like, well, I guess there's no finance jobs to be had. I'll go to law school. And a lot of econ and finance majors thought the same thing. So they went, I went, as the largest entering class in history. So jobs out of law school weren't easy to have. I didn't really play the game the way they tell you to, you know, it wasn't out there networking, and maybe that I wasn't playing a numbers game in law school. So the opportunities that were available to me weren't ones that I wanted. And so then this construction business is still around, I was like, "Well, okay, maybe this is the universe, somebody's telling me that this is the right move." But it wasn't my first choice. And so the stories that I told were stories that I, whether I adopted them or believed them from the start, but it was like, "Well, you know, can't get a job in law and I didn't like it anyway." And I believed that I had tried and failed. I kind of thought, well, that's somebody telling me, I can't do this, this isn't right for me. So then the construction career became my first choice and worked there, found that I didn't really identify with it. I mean, even up until like, the last year, people would ask, "Well, what do you do?" Like, "Well, I'm a construction project manager, but like, let's talk about other stuff." It's like, this is what I do for money. And that's a separate part of my life. And it's like, "Man, I just don't think this is for me." And I don't know that it was, it didn't identify it based on any of the actual tasks. It wasn't like, I'm not good at this particular thing that it needs. It was just like this angst that I identified with arising out of that, it's like this, I can't do this forever. We had our second child, at some point during that period, and through conversations, my wife realized that, like, I wasn't holding up my end at home. And that kind of gets into the like, it's family and family, you're letting one of them down or the other. And before my wife, it was dad like those were the key relationships in my life, and he was my confidant. So there's this person that you deeply desire, like, I just want to do right by you, and I want to not put you in a bad position. It was just like, "I know, if I leave, that, that's gonna be really hard for you. But then, you know, my wife is getting two kids ready for school, and she's doing all the grocery shopping, and all this stuff is like, it's not going to work." So I had conversations with my dad about it. It's like, I got to pull out of this summer, I need to find some balance, and just it didn't materialize. So then I think it was like September of 2021 that I had another conversation, well, I finally brought it up to my dad, it's like, "Okay, I can't, I'm not gonna do this forever." So there was this phase out process that was planned, and then came February of 22, like, that hadn't really come together. So I was still there, still disappointing him or my wife constantly, and was just getting to this point of desperation. So in May or June of last year, I got to the point of like, I was driving home one day, and it's like, "Man, I would rather die than go in tomorrow." And like, I've had depressive episodes before, and, like, identified that as "Oh wow." Like, no, there's nothing that is worth wanting to hurt yourself over. And I don't know that I really won't even get into that. But it was just like, having the presence of mind at that point I said "No." Like, this is enough. But, you know, honestly, it was having walked that path before. And knowing where it led, right? This is just like early stages, you know, I kind of identified that the first step is wanting to escape, and then it kind of trickles down from there. And for me, I don't know how other people may be. But I found myself wanting to just get in the car and drive all day in a straight line away. And that's pretty benign, but not when you have a family at home, who need your help, even if it was just for a night, but it's like that impulse to escape and feeling trapped. This kind of deep panic inside you that is constantly boiling. So I think that was, kind of, the clarity that I have is like alright, escape leads to darker places. And I don't ever want to go back there. So I'm gonna stop. And very quickly after that ended up kind of going hands off.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:42

Absolutely. What did that conversation with your dad sound like? Because that is like, coming from all the right places, right? Like you didn't want to disappoint him. You have a lot of respect for him. All of those types of things that sounded like had caused you to be putting off that type of conversation for a while, but when you finally decided to have, it sounds like that secondary conversation. Do you remember any parts of that?

Aaron 10:12

I think the most important thing that I remember about his responses were all of the things that were the opposite of what I was afraid of. And I imagine that, I am going to say I came off like a child, and I don't mean I was childish. I mean, like a son talking to his father. So really, many times throughout the difficulties that I had there, and through COVID, and all of that, it's like, "I need a dad, not a boss." You can't have 100% dad. There's always a bit of that in there. And so it was kind of just like, that's the only person I was talking to– it was my dad. And I don't know if it was like, ugly cry, it's not. But it was definitely, it was kind of breaking myself in front of him. And it's like, "This is where I'm at. And these are some of the things I've been thinking. And I can't do that. And I need to move on." And I think it took him back. I mean, if he had known that I was thinking any of that stuff or feeling that way, then I wouldn't have been there. So it was kind of like an uncorking of all of the things that you know, you try to keep down for the other person and say, it's like "You have so much on your plate. I don't want to burden you with this too." And so yeah, all of his responses were extremely encouraging. And he was 100% dad. It was the biggest relief of my life. Probably.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:41

Really?

Aaron 11:42

Yeah, it was a lifeline. I mean, it was a difficult conversation to have. But it was the beginning of a redemptive arc. And I'm really thankful that I finally had that conversation with him.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:54

You had recognized that there were some, I think, as you put them some flawed stories that you had been telling yourself for quite a period of time. And it sounds like we've maybe only already acknowledged one or two of those. But I'm curious, how were those holding you back throughout the career change process for yourself? And what did you do about them? What were they as well?

Aaron 12:24

I mean, the primary flawed belief that I was, I didn't even know was there. I believed that I had tried law and failed. That was the number one thing that was holding me back. You know, before I left my previous employment, everyone was saying, "Well, you should look at construction law. Like that's a pretty natural transition for you." And, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, you hear that and you make the right noises. But inside, you're like, "You don't know anything about me." When it turns out that voice that saying that inside your head, the one that's wrong. But it is this massive wall, this huge resistance that like, everyone thinks you should do this. But no, it won't work out for me. I've tried that. I know better. I know better than you. And maybe that's the other one. The corollary is that I know better than you. Like, that's a lie. So I was believing that law wasn't an option. Because I was like, I can't get a second chance at that. Turns out I hadn't had a chance in the first place. I cut myself off, again, because I knew better than you. I don't need to do this networking thing. I don't need to do XYZ in the law school career process, like the right thing is gonna materialize for me and yeah. So I guess too, it's that I had failed and I know better. Because really, the "I know better" thing I think is that was the change that I think unlocked anything moving forward. It's like this realization that I hadn't tried law. And then I was just afraid to do it. Because I was afraid to fail, or I was afraid that I'd find out that I couldn't do it. Which again, is funny, because it's like, to take a step back, the thing that unlocked all of this is realizing that like, there is no worst case scenario than what I am in right now. My marriage is falling apart. I had been at home for however long, I was depressed and all these things, it's like, why not try? There is nothing that could get worse. You know, the path that I'm on, I'm gonna be alone, probably not gonna be able to see my kids because I'm so angry about everything. Just gonna get uglier. So why not try? And so then that kind of broke things with this. I tried and failed. It's just like, oh, like, I have to try this. The other thing that arose out of when I was doing the strengths finder. I was looking at those things in tandem with the responses that I've gotten from friends and family about what do you do well, and what do I think of when I think of you. And the types of responses there, like the strengths finder is your stated preferences, right? The things that I'm good at. But what other people say about you are the revealed preferences. This is how you are when you're not thinking about who you are. And like, half or 75% of the responses were well, you're a compassionate problem solver, very analytical. And yeah, so you're googling problem solver and compassionate and helper along with a few of those strengths from the strengths finder and everything I got, like lawyers at the top of the list. So I see that it's like, "Nah, this list doesn't work."

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:48

"This list was wrong. I need a new list."

Aaron 15:51

Yeah. And then I was like, searching about, like, what is around law? Like, how can I be a researcher or like a..

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:02

"How can I be a non-lawyer?"

Aaron 16:05

Exactly. Well, you can from the start, like the first thing that I was running after was, I was trying to get into product. "Why do you want to do product?" Well, because I'm really good at hearing what people have to say, and finding the nugget in that and how do you structure around that nugget, and then communicate that to someone else. This is the practice of law. Yeah, it just was not, I don't know, I was blind to it. I believed that I'm a failed lawyer. And I passed the bar in Georgia, you know, it wasn't about that. It was just, I didn't get the job I wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:39

You know, here's what strikes me. You are, what word am I looking for, you're so observant. You are so observant in yourself, in other situations, like anybody who is listening to you for more than seven seconds can tell your ability to really register the context of something that is going on and figure out how it is connected back to something else. And I think that makes you particularly self aware. And I think that also allows you to see, like some of the really funny situations that we've already talked about too, and the ironic situations too. Except when someone has said that level of observation skills and tendencies that you do, then I also find that it's really easy to get trapped in it. It's really easy to get fooled by yourself, as well, more so than maybe any other person on the earth. Because it comes naturally and normally to you. So then it creates this sort of big mirage for lack of a better phrase.

Aaron 17:50

Well, it's, you know, believing too much in the strengths and your convictions. And so if you're good at analysis and context and which is funny, you say context and connect. I mean, those are two of my top five as well. Context and connect.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:05

Oh, your Clifton Strengths themes?

Aaron 18:08

Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:09

Not surprised.

Aaron 18:10

I can spin a yarn that will fool myself. And not to get like, too into the listicle psychology. But it's like, it's ego, right? Like, your ego is trying to protect you from discomfort and trying to protect you from change and fear. And speaking of context, and connectedness, when I first started talking about career things with a therapist, I was like, "Yeah, I'm worried that I took the easy way out." And it wasn't because the job was easy. And I had a good chuckle that I think I said that in January of 2020. So it was not easy for long. But in a sense, it was the easy way out because I didn't exercise any agency in making it happen. It was there for me to step into. So I did. And so it was an easy decision. Right? But that was the only easy part about it. And maybe why I'm so jazzed about the situation now is that none of that was set in front of me. I had to seek that out and make it happen. And I think therein lies the satisfaction of it. Right? It wasn't easy, and I had to make it happen. The story is actually there's a lot of kismat in there. So maybe you can say that it was sent.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:39

I don't think so. Because I think that, not to blatantly disagree with you, but based on what you've already said, and if you just kept going down the road that you were on, without making some very intentional changes, it would never have resulted in where you're at now.

Aaron 19:38

Oh, for sure. I mean maybe November through December, January, like right before I had that realization about laws, I was applying for construction industry jobs. You know, I was like, this isn't worse for all these people on the podcast. Never work for me. So I know better. Yeah, that was the kind of broken place and the difficulties that I had to happen, because I don't think I would have, all of that had to be stripped away before I could seriously examine these beliefs, right. Like, it almost had to come from a place of desperation to actually ask the question like, why can't I practice law? And even thinking of when was the happiest time in my life? When was I functioning as a person that I liked most? Like, well, in law school. That was, you had my mojo back, right, like, and part of that is being 23 in a great college town. But it was engaging, and I felt like I was good at what I did. I wasn't even a good student. That's another thing. But the subject matter was live to me. And it's like, "Oh, like I get it. It just makes sense." They felt purposeful. Because I was doing something that my brain works well at. So those, kind of, came together. And I mean, it hit me like a sack of bricks. And it's like, this is an unbelievable story. I'll preface this with that. But this is how it happened. Like, my wife at some point was like, "Hey, you have to get out of this house, you have to talk to someone, you have to put this on someone else. Because I can't be the only person responsible for your whatever."

Aaron 21:51

Yeah. And my grandfather had passed away, it was right before Christmas. And so my grandma lives like five minutes away. And, you know, it's like, I know that she functions well when people need her. And I bet she can use some company. So I picked up the phone and call her as like, "Hey, need to spend some time with you." And there's like, at first time I was meeting with her. We were talking and she's like, "Yeah. The tough thing about this is no one can tell you what the answer is." It's like "Yeah, I know. It's awful. I just wish someone give me a sign." It was like this. It was a prayer, right? Like it was this from your gut. This is what I need. And, like, within five minutes that, "Why don't you practice law? This is what you need to do." It just like, pops into my head. And I know that's not a believable story, but it is how it happened. And it was this consuming thing. It's like "No I need to see this out." You know, and it was like this awakening of like, certainly ambition. But no, you're not going to knock me down. Granted, I was knocked down for close to 10 years. But no, I'm going to get back up eventually. And it was like picking myself up off the mat for that particular fight that I thought I lost and was like, I gotta go after like, I cannot lose it. I have to see at least, right. And so from that point forward, I've been pursuing this. And I think the other thing that it may have led to it or is certainly helped, you started exercising. And that's like, I don't want to be the person that talks about exercising. But I was driving home from dropping my kids off at school. And like I had this thought, just like a flash of, "you should get on the peloton today", my wife bought me one for Father's Day three years ago, and I wrote it maybe 10 times. And it's like "It's down in there just waiting for you." And I immediately, you know, ego chimes in with all these reasons not to do that. So oh, well, you got to do this, this, this and this. And it was just this decision that I'm going to say yes to the things that I normally talk myself out of. And I think that mentality shift is what absolutely needed to happen. I've noticed it at work even still, like now where it's like, this is what I would normally do in a situation, we're not going to do that. We're gonna do this other thing. And that has served me very, very well. It's just like, learning to recognize or have some awareness of when you are trying to talk yourself out of, I don't know if it's like a left brain, right brain thing or whatever it is, but that part of you that wants to stay put, when that starts making an argument, you just need to do the opposite. So I think the reason exercising was the key is that it was I've never been good at it. And it's hard and it hurts, right? So the pain helps you get out of overthinking and doing something that's hard just for the sake of doing something that's hard, teaches you that, like, that feels good. And it's accomplishment. And it's a muscle, right? Like the willingness to step into something that you know is going to be hard that you can't just conjure that out of thin air, you kind of got to work on it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:49

Shenanigans. We'll call it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:29

I think what's fascinating about that, to me, and this is still, to this day, one of the most fun phenomenons that I feel like I get to witness all the time, based on how our company helps people and the type of work we get to do here. But the really fascinating phenomenon is that, as people build the skill set around doing hard things, you said for the sake of doing something hard, and what you're functionally doing is you're building skill set around being able to do things that your body is basically telling you, body and mind are telling you "Yeah, no, you shouldn't do that. And here's all the reasons why." But it really is a skill set and a practice that goes along with it. And all the time we get these really fun emails from people like Kate ran an ultra marathon, she's like, "Yes, the things that I learned while making a career change, that allowed me to run an ultra marathon. By the way, I'm going to do another here coming up, I already got the date scheduled." And we get that type of situation all the time, because of exactly what you're talking about. And so I can't, no pressure for you emailing us 10 years from now and say, like, "By the way, Scott, here's all the fascinating things." No pressure at all. However, I think it's really fun. And it's not something that is particularly tangible, a lot of the time. So it's hard to point at, it's not like, you know, I made this career change, and now I'm earning X amount of dollars. And here's the things that I buy from my family, blah, blah, blah. It's less tangible to be able to say, "Hey, this type of set of skills that I acquired by choosing to do things more intentionally, while my mind was telling me to do the opposite, has now then built a set of stairsteps to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing." So I'm curious, what advice would you have for someone who is back in that situation where if they are replaying those stories over and over again, that they missed their chance, they failed at this, they are not ever going to be able to do that, back where you were and where I was at different points, what advice would you give that person for being able to move forward?

Aaron 27:56

Well, one is baby steps, right? Like the two things I did that catalyzed a huge change were, go hang out with my grandma and exercise for 20 minutes. I mean, like it ended up being a much longer story than that. But that was the beginning of like six months that were still harder, six weeks, or however long it was. It glosses over a lot. It starts very small. So you don't have to continue being a version of you that you don't like, I mean, it changes. And it's gradual. But even a month later, you look back, it's like, "Wow, I'm different." And it's easy to look at all the things that need to change in order for me to feel like I have my life in order or feel like I'm satisfied with my career, my family, my house, whatever it is. But those are always, kind of, stay the same unless you do something about it. And it can be 20 minutes, you know, prove yourself that you can do something that scares you, or, I don't know. Because you can. You absolutely can do the thing that you're afraid of. And the consequences of doing something and failing are, where you're at. And if you're unhappy with that, try. But that is the kernel of it for me is that all of the stories that you're telling yourself about what can go wrong if you do something, in all likelihood, the worst case is where you're at.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:31

I love that. Not to take us down a completely different shift. But here's one of the things I'm curious about. As we're looking forward now, because we've been talking about the past a lot. As you're looking forward, what do you feel lines up really, really well for you for the trajectory that you're on right now? I've heard you reference it in a few sentences saying, like, "Hey, I think this part is really exciting." Or "I think like, this is actually something that gets me jazzed." But as you look forward, what do you think lines up so much better than what was?

Aaron 30:09

I mean, all of it. I mean, getting to be analytical, I'm not a numbers analyst. I just don't care about numbers. But stories and the language like I'm a very verbal person. So getting to live in that area, I think, was huge for me. I also like to be precise, like, that turns out that's pretty good for drafting and negotiating contracts, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:40

Yes. Shocker.

Aaron 30:41

Yeah. Well, and being the expert. You know, part of what as I was interviewing for some positions in the field of law that came out like, this is a spontaneous answer to a question, but I just deeply forever have wanted to be wise and to be known as wise. And there may be cynical reasons around, you know, "Solomon asked for wisdom, and then he was the richest man on earth." Maybe it was that. But what stuck was wanting to be wise. And that has always been the highest value for me. And then think about the people that I've loved most of my life, they've been people with this generous spirit of just sharing. So valuing wisdom and generosity, it's like, okay, here's a role where people seek your wisdom, and you can generously give it to them. Like, what is not to like about that, right? That sounds extremely satisfying to me. And another thing I'm excited about is, it redeems so much of the difficulties that I've had over the last couple of years, I mean, you've talked about career change, and you can think, "Oh, I need to go somewhere else entirely, you know, it'd be a failure if I was in this tangent area." That's a bit silly. And so then it gives me the opportunity to look back at the things that were hard over the last 9-10 years. And instead of embargoing that in my mind, like, can't go there, that's a bad place, I don't want to think about it. It redeems it. It's like, there were some things I didn't like about it. But it was like schooling, you know, I mean, the experiences, they're the only reason that I have the shot that I have now. So getting to look back on something that was difficult and just really value it. I mean, hold it very precisely. Right? Like I would not be where I am if I had not done all of that. That makes me really happy. And I think it brings a lot of healing to all of that. And really, that's something that I need to say to my dad more. All of this process has been "Oh, you hate it." I was like, "No, it just wasn't right for me. And now that I've found something that does feel right, that is such a valuable part of it." But just from who I am, how I like to be, how I like to think, I mean, I love diving into details. And how can I become a master on some subject in two hours. And making sure that your answer is right. I love doing that. And how can I argue around that? And how can I structure this answer such that like now, this is pretty unimpeachable. I love at least trying to do that. Those were my best days in construction management was when you had to send some email about "Oh, well, you think that we've breached here. But here's why we have it." Like, again, trying to practice law without being an attorney.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:46

Those are all little clues along the way. Just fascinating. Sometimes you can only see the clues in reverse. That's the potential. I guess one other thing I wanted to ask you about, now that you have, I heard you say you're sort of finding different pieces of yourself again, earlier. And I'm curious what that looks like and how other people, your dad or your wife, are seeing that or not seeing that in your life. What's different for you? As you said, found different pieces of yourself that you felt like, I can't remember how you put it either had lost or..

Aaron 34:24

Yeah, re-embodying a version of myself that I like. I mean, probably the biggest thing is just my confidence is back. I had convinced myself I think that I was something other than the way people see me and I could not get around that vision of myself. And then now being in a position that really leverages my strengths like yeah, I am really good at what I do. And it's, I don't know, I mean, and that flows into feeling purpose. So it's like, so much of that existential angst, whatever, that was hanging like a cloud is gone. So I'm freer with my affection to her, to the kids, more open with my emotions. It's pretty crazy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:20

That's awesome. That's really cool.

Aaron 35:21

Yeah, it is. I've talked about it. Shelby asked me what's one of the things I'm most excited for the next year. And, honestly, I'm most excited for my kids to see me functioning as a person who gets to bring all of themselves to work and gets to let the world reinforce the things that I already think about myself, you know, I think I'm probably pretty good at this and then have people pay you money to do the things you're good at. It's kind of a win-win.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:56

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen To Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoy doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work. Just like we include on the podcast here, and actually has been called the best audio book experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or whatever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:51

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 36:57

Other people are doing it. Here's an example of other people who have made a complete shift or completely changed industries. And yes, it is possible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:04

One of the most fun things that I get to do every single day is talk to people all over the world about how they have completely switched industries without starting over. We get to share a lot of those stories on the podcast, you've heard them if you've listened to more than one episode. But it's also one of the biggest challenges. Switching industries without starting over? This is something many people come to us for. Almost everyone we talked to feels like it's going to be a struggle for them. They think they're going to have to accept an entry level role or go back to school, or they're going to have to take some kind of a pay cut. However, what we found is that these don't have to be true. And in fact, in most situations, we find that it's unneeded. You can pivot to a new industry without taking a demotion or a pay cut. But the way to do that is probably a lot different than how you're thinking about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:59

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.