281: The Question That Leaves Multipotentialites with a Sinking Feeling in Their Stomachs

Melanie Buford 00:01
I feel for them because I think when it doesn't work out, or they feel what Emily describes as that sense of, kind of, boredom with something that was a passion, I feel that they have personalize their career so much that if often the failure gets harder.

Introduction 00:20
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44
Hey, if you've listened to the Happen To Your Career podcast for a while, you might have heard the term 'multipotentialite' which, by the way, just means somebody who is multi-passionate or not happy and just specializing in one thing for the rest of their life. Now, the person who's done the most to popularize this term is my friend, Emily Wapnick. And she's been on the show a few times, most recently in Episode 220. And by the way, if you haven't heard it, and you feel like you have many interests in the world, go back and take a listen to it at happentoyourcareer.com/220. But anyhow, a while back, I was clicking through my email, and saw an article from Emily and I try and keep tabs on her work. And I happened to... something happened to catch my attention. I clicked through. And I began reading this article, and it was about multipotentialite but in particular, it was relating multipotentialite and where they have a tendency to fall on different assessments, like, strengthsfinder, or MBTI, or other assessments. And at that point, my attention was captured. And as I continued to read through, I realized, "hey, this one obviously wasn't written by Emily, it's written by somebody else" and then clicked through, started learning about this other person and realized we had to have her on the podcast. So my guest today is Melanie Buford. She is a writer and assistant professor of career education. She teaches Career Education courses at the University of Cincinnati, she has spent a lot of time with different types of assessments like MBTI. She's also a writer on the side identifies as a multipotentialite, both fiction, nonfiction, and she's developing a fantasy series. She has a lot going on. But I am super excited to welcome her to the Happen To Your Career podcast. Welcome to the show, Melanie, really excited to have you on.

Melanie Buford 02:42
Thanks. I'm happy to be here.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:44
So I mentioned all of the studies, and all of the work that you have begun doing in terms of quantifying where multipotentialite have a tendency to fall on some of these different assessments. And that is absolutely amazing. I'm fascinated by that. And we're going to talk about that. But I'm curious, before we get into that, you were telling me a little bit before we click the record button, how do you describe to people what it is that you do now?

Melanie Buford 03:13
As I said, you ask the tough question, and it's a fun question for multipotentialite. It's everywhere to try to answer. So my full time job, I am an assistant professor of career education at University of Cincinnati. And what's cool about that, part of my job, is that about 80% of my time is spent teaching in the classroom. So I get to work with several 100 students a year doing all the fun career development stuff that I like, but the other 20% of my job, I am allowed to do service. So I sit on committees at UC. And then I also do, kind of, just because of my own interest, a little bit of research and writing. And so that's where this article came about. And then just because that's not quite enough, I also then do write fiction on the side. So I do a little bit of poetry. And I'm working on a full length fantasy novel, as you mentioned, which is quite a fun piece.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:01
So I love how you say "because that wasn't quite enough". So it sounds like there's layers to that almost a little bit of jest, but also a little bit of seriousness. What's buried beneath that comment? I'm curious.

Melanie Buford 04:14
I thought you'd say "a little bit of just, a little bit of coffee." Beneath that comments, oh, yeah, I mean, you know, I have a very classic multipotentialite story, in the sense that I just spent a lot of years wandering, and was really in a very sort of INFJ. We can talk more about that later. But, kind of, perfectionistic need for this authentic, perfect career that fully captures myself ended up not only going down the path of education and sort of, you know, climbing the ranks there, but feeling like I just wanted a more pure creative expression piece on the side. It was a lot of work. It took several years to kind of actualize those pieces, but now, you know, the benefit is that I have a full time job. And then can also do the creative stuff. So I feel that one or the other alone just doesn't quite satisfy me. And given me all the admittedly many things that I want, some challenge, some creativity, some ability to support myself financially, all those good things. So it's a very multipotentialite, kind of, story.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:17
So we've already used the word multipotentialite a few times here, but I'm curious what... and Emily has her own definition, but I'm curious what that means for you.

Melanie Buford 05:28
I think Emily's definition is awesome. I think Emily is awesome. But I would say, for me, it's, kind of, in my experience, sort of, someone with multiple talents. And certainly someone with multiple interests, who really wants to find a way, I guess there's sort of an action intention piece for me, but someone who wants to find a way to express their, kind of, multifaceted identity through their work in different ways. And so, you know, they may have multiple skills, often they have multiple skills, but I think it's trying to find a way to actualize all those different things that they have going on, and passions, and talents that they have. So that would be my definition.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:05
I love that definition. And I can absolutely identify with that too. Especially the actualized piece, the actualizing all of those different talents, passions, etc. I, myself, have a tendency to take on lots of different activities, just because as you said, you know, sometimes it feels like, you know, one thing may not be enough for all the reasons that you described, and more. Here's what I'm curious about though, long before you had the word multipotentialite to identify with. I'm curious, where did you start noticing that tendency in your career? How far back was that?

Melanie Buford 06:45
Yeah, it's an interesting question. I will say before I discovered Emily's work specifically, I sort of had this loose sense of, like, a renaissance person. I know, she cites that sometimes. And so I knew that there was this type of thing that some people can have multifaceted careers. I remember just before I discovered her being interested in sort of the classical scientist artist combo, like, Da Vinci, for example. Anyway, yeah, it's almost hard to pinpoint that I went to high school and I remember in high school, I was kind of the math tech person.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:19
The mass tech. Do explain. I love that.

Melanie Buford 07:23
Right? It seems strange to me now. But I remember I was in, like, I took a college level pre engineering course. In high school, I, kind of, thought I might go down the engineering path, I always did well in math, and was, kind of, the... just like a leadership role in math, I would often kind of help other folks in math class. And I loved, you know, theory, and I remember algebra was very difficult for me. But by the time I mastered it, I sort of really enjoyed mastering and, kind of, being really embedded in that space. So I thought of myself as more of a technical person, although I knew I hated hard sciences. But, you know, I had actually applied... I applied to several colleges and ended up torn between two pretty different programs, which I think, kind of, captures how diverse my interests were. But I got into Carnegie Mellon, and I remember thinking about there's a program there that was sort of cutting edge, I think, at the time in artificial intelligence. They had, you know, there were some science requirements. And they were really, it was kind of, a blend of a nice sort of tech program and humanities program. And looking at both the, sort of, technical side of AI, and also the sort of human side of AI and the ethical pieces, and all of that I remember were pretty cool to look at the time. And then I ended up choosing between that, and Wesleyan University, which is a totally liberal arts college in Middletown, Connecticut. And their programs, they did not have engineering I remember and they didn't have a lot of necessarily tech focused pieces, but they were much more embedded in, like, you know, English and Psychology and kind of the humanities, political science. And so I remember kind of being at that crossroads and thinking, "am I more of a tech person? Or am I more of a humanities person?" And I felt that the... I had explored the tech side a little bit more, I was really into gadgets and computers, I was always kind of fixing things, and tooling around with things, I didn't feel that I had explored the psychological emotional kind of part as much. And I was just at the moment drawn to the culture of Wesleyan, which was very, very open and into kind of being who you are, and it was very creative. And so I ultimately decided to go with Wesleyan and I remember feeling... that was probably the first time I remember feeling, like, I had to choose to really prioritize one side of myself. And I remember feeling, like, that choice was hard. I was a little bit of both. So I would say that's the earliest that I can remember on that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:43
That's so interesting. I didn't really realize it in that particular way until I'm listening to your story and realize that I felt that same tug, if you will, to have to choose in one way or another. I was very much the person who... I ended up enrolling in a school what I thought I was going to go into, which was, you know, computer science at the time, was not a terribly great fit for me, I actually loved some aspects of it, but I ended up switching majors. I don't know, 7, 8, 9 times someplace in there. And for me, it was very much that exact same feeling like I have to choose but I don't know, necessarily if I want to choose because there's these different sides of myself. And in retrospect, I ended up taking five years where a lot of people complete their undergrad in four years. And I think that that was a great thing for me in retrospect, and I got a lot of experiences that I wouldn't have had if I had just gone down the traditional college path.

Melanie Buford 10:43
I was just gonna say that in working with undergraduates, which I now do, one of the things that I noticed, you know, I work with a ton of students who are torn between majors for exactly the reason that you just articulated, right, they feel like this capture is one part of them and this capture is one part of them, you know, they have a hard time finding, kind of, the perfection in one major. I can't help but feel like there's a perhaps a sense that increasingly, students expect to capture all of themselves with their major and career. And I feel like that's an increasing expectation. And that's part of what's creating, in my view, like an increasing struggle with this system, that often encourage you, to challenge you to choose one program. So, you know, when I think of, one of the way my parents described that choice, they were like, "Well, of course, it didn't capture my entire self. I didn't expect it to." But that was not my experience.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:38
That's so interesting. Most of the system is not necessarily set up that way. And it is designed in some ways to choose. So it does feel when you're embedded in it or anywhere near it, that it's sort of set up for failure, if you go in with that expectation that is going to capture all of those parts of you in one way or another. So I don't know, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it in that way. I appreciate that. Here's my question to you, then, as you went through all that, and begin to recognize that there were these different parts of yourself, almost had different sides of yourself, but it feels like it's not really sides, it's all part of you, but different pieces, different interests, different talents, passions, etc. to be nurtured. Where along the lines did you decide that the route that you are on currently was right for you at the given time?

Melanie Buford 12:33
It was not simple.

Melanie Buford 12:37
It's the easiest way I can... Yeah, I mean, as complicated as my interest felt, I think that's how complicated a process it was for me to really get to a place where I feel like they're captured. I spent, it's a long story, I'll make it, kind of, the distilled version, but it was years. It was many, many years. So I've been in my career full time about 10 years now, post college, and the first four years, solidly four years if not, kind of, five there were spent what could best be described, I think as wandering. I graduated Wesleyan. And I remember in sort of each phase when I was choosing where to go, I ended up moving and changing jobs a number of times. I remember in each phase, there was sort of one thing I thought I knew about what I wanted. But it was only one thing and it was usually a rather abstract thing, right. But I remember when I graduated from college, I actually ended up moving out to San Francisco, and joining AmeriCorps. I did a program called Public Allies, which felt like it captured a lot of my passions in the sense that it was a leadership program. It was somewhat social justice oriented. There were a lot of different interesting people in the program. So I had a lot of new relationships that I was building with really interesting, passionate, multifaceted people. And I was simultaneously placed with a nonprofit. And so that was also one of those sort of combination jobs, I was in the community and Public Allies on Fridays, and then working at the nonprofit four days a week. And so I felt like that was beginning to capture it. I knew at that time that I had a kind of passion for education. But I felt like it may not necessarily be K through 12 education. I felt like it might actually be adult education. And I wasn't sure what that would look like.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:37
Surprised.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:30
What were some of those indicators for you? You said, I felt like at the time it may be adult education versus K through 12 education. But what were some of those indicators for you that you were starting to feel that way? Just curious.

Melanie Buford 14:43
Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Well, so I had, in high school, I had taken a job at... I was a museum docent. And I remember feeling, and this is like totally, you know, one of those instinctual feelings, but I remember I would deliver presentations and I would lead tours. And while I absolutely hated public speaking, I remember feeling like in those moments when I was sort of sharing information and helping people see things in a new way, I remember feeling a little bit of that sense of flow. Like, you know, the sense that this is right. This feels like something that I'm good at. And I enjoy and time was, kind of, passed quickly, right. And so that was all I really had to go on. I had very little work experience other than the sort of view camp counselor dose, and like jobs. And I remember feeling like explaining things and helping people understand history is somewhat fulfilling for me. That and my... I studied abroad in Denmark during college and really enjoyed thinking about identity and psychology and how those things influence people's happiness and well being. Those were really... that was all I had to go on. And so I just remember, I was actually sitting in an interview for Public Allies for that AmeriCorps program. And they, that was a committee interview, there were like, four people including the director lined up in front of me, and they were asking me all these questions about what are your passions, and I remember feeling a little defensive, because I just didn't know. I felt like, I didn't know, I wasn't very specific. A lot of the other folks in the program had these very specific causes social justice, causes that they were really embedded in college. And I had been sort of general in the sense that I disliked studying identity in general, but didn't have this specific cause yet.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:31
So they're all, like, I'm passionate about saving kittens from war torn areas. And you're like, I'm not sure yet.

Melanie Buford 16:38
Exactly. I mean, it was almost, kind of, comical, "hi, guys." And then, you know, we got along great. I felt like these are my people. And yet, I don't, kind of, have this cause yet. And so I remember, literally in the interview, I just remember they were like, so you know, what do you think you want to do? And there was like an awkward pause. And I just, this just came out. I didn't even think about in advance. But I just said, "I think maybe education."

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:05
High up, no question mark at the end.

Melanie Buford 17:07
Right. Exactly. I tried to make it sound professional, I was wearing a suit coat. Came out word ' education'. And they, kind of, looked at me, and they're like, I remember... I literally remember they looked at me and they wrote it down. And they said, "Okay, like, that's a valid thing" you know. And I was like, "Well, I think it's a valid thing." I can think it's a valid thing. And so I just, kind of, went from there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:28
I'm fascinated by how, and this is not at all what I anticipated talking to you about today. However, I'm just absolutely fascinated by how identity shifts through small interactions that add up to massive, different ways that we think about. So, like, that you went through that experience, and you got some measure of validation in some way where they're like, that seems normal. And then you start to think about, hey, you know, I could... that seems like a good answer. And you start with, like, one other little pebble in filling up the glass, if you will, of pebbles that move you towards thinking about yourself in a different way. And I'm just fascinated by how that actually happens, because it happens through so many little pieces. That's really interesting. So what are some of the other maybe bigger pebbles that happened on the way that led you up to where you're at now?

Melanie Buford 18:23
Well, I feel like most of them were those small pebbles, sort of, a slow accumulation of small things. But I remember that was one turning point. So I knew education in some way. And then when I graduated from that program, about a year later, I remember thinking, you know, I think I want to go to graduate school. And I looked at a number of programs in psychology, because I really was starting to, like, I consistently love psychology. Also, because of that sort of educational piece, and I had been placed with an educational nonprofit, I ended up applying to Harvard Graduate School of Education, and ended up going there after another year of doing kind of random nonprofit stuff. So I remember that, you know, that educational piece really built because I consistently was interested in it. But again, I was placed with educational nonprofit that served college age or traditional college aged young adults, so 18 to 24. And again, I, you know, I looked at some programs in K through 12. And people encouraged me to look at programs that served K through 12 education, I just... every time, kind of, just had this instinctual feeling like, "no, I don't think kids are where I want to be." So I kind of built on that. And then it was really, like, in graduate school in a program, a one year Master's in education, where I was encountering a lot of people who are passionate about K through 12. That, you know, that was their driver. Again, I sort of had this feeling like all these people are so clear on what they want to do, you know, and I remember having one friend who was interested in adult education like I was, we, kind of, had really similar interest and she sort of, again to your point, kind of, helped me crystal validate the fact that this is, again, a legitimate thing, adult education, though the pathway is not necessarily as clear at least from where we're standing now, can be a great way to apply some of these interests. So I took a class in that program called adult development, and it just blew my mind. Like it was one of those fascinating classes I've ever taken. And that is when I started thinking higher education was where I wanted to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:23
Very cool. So now, years later then, what cause us to want to, you know, shifting back to multipotentialite here? What caused you to begin to want to quantify some of these pieces around, where do multipotentialite fall on assessments? You're obviously familiar with MBTI (Myers Briggs Type Indicator), if you haven't heard that before, you said that you're an INFJ. If I heard you, right. For those people who don't know what that is, what does that mean?

Melanie Buford 20:56
The big question.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:57
The big question.

Melanie Buford 21:00
And somehow feels like the biggest question. So INFJ is one of the 16 Myers Briggs types. The types are sort of subtle, the differences are quite subtle. And having 16 types actually gives it a lot of complexity, which is moderated by this particular instrument. The INFJ is, and this is just my words, these are my words, but I would say that INFJs typically are somewhat idealistic in the sense that they really are interested in self expression, and authenticity, in sort of, they tend to be drawn to social causes, they tend to have a bit of a creative side. And yet they are introverted and often are interested in, kind of, sometimes reflecting on things deeply, and not necessarily taking action on them right away. But that they have this, what I would perceive is often perfectionistic drive to, kind of, find something that is a match for their identity and, kind of, continually refine their own sense of identity. But again, it's one of many Myers Briggs types and a lot of information even in those four letters.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:00
Very cool. I appreciate you explaining what that means. So then, what took place where you're like, hey, multipotentialite, I think I'm going to utilize my class to figure out where multipotentialites fall on all of these different types of assessments like MBTI, which we covered, like strength finder, which many of our listeners have heard me mentioned on the podcast from time to time. And how did this happen, Melanie?

Melanie Buford 22:27
So it was totally serendipitous that it happened. But I... so I'm certified in Myers Briggs, I'm certified in Strong Interest Inventory. And I've been using both of those assessments for quite a number of years. I'm also partially certified in Clifton Strengths or strength finder (it has so many names, they keep changing). And so I have been using those assessments with students for years. And then I was asked to teach a new course, or to, kind of, adapt the course that we had to fit a population of initially 227 undecided first year students, primarily undecided first year students. And so in designing the class, that's where I sort of put a number of elements that I disliked, including assessment, and we put the Myers Briggs in there. And we actually put Strong in there, we had them look at Emily's book and a number of others. And so I was just teaching this class, and they asked me to gather some data about the class to, kind of, demonstrate that it was helping students get clarity. As part of that ask, I decided to go ahead and run a pre and a post survey, and just do a number of assessments on those students. And, you know, I just kind of thought one day, kind of, chatting with one of my co workers. What if we asked, what if we go ahead and gather that data from at least a small sub sample of about 100 students? You know, do identify as a multipotentialite, what kind of career approach appeals to you? What were your Myers Briggs results? What were your Clifton Strengths? What is your intended career path? And so I gathered all that data into an Excel sheet. And I have a strange passion for Excel. And so I created all these columns, and they were colorful, and just sitting in the library one day just, kind of, playing with this data. And I started seeing that there were some really powerful correlations between these results. And that's when I ended up connecting with Emily's work and reaching out and saying, "Hey, you know, I have this data. Are you interested in me writing a piece that, kind of, ties together these different concepts and can maybe tell us a little bit about multi potential reality?" It was not intended to be a super intense. rigorous, you know, study by any means but I just the data was kind of calling to me to share it in some fashion. And so that's how it came about.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:40
So out of the sample that you have so far, what were some of the pieces that you learned? What were some of the things that popped out, as you said, that were some of the correlations?

Melanie Buford 24:52
So yeah, there are a number of, kind of, patterns that came out. One of the big ones... So with Myers Briggs, there's a guy named Keirsey divided the Myers Briggs types into a couple of different, four different categories. And one of those categories he called the 'Idealists'. These are folks who have both an N and an F. So intuitive and feeling in their Myers Briggs type. There are four types that have that, NF, right, in the middle of their type. And he said a number of things about those folks, including that they tend to value self expression. And they tend to be drawn to creativity. And they tend to want to really find an authentic career and, kind of, do tend to be, kind of, helper folks and interested in helping people develop their potential, all those great things. And so, one of the big findings here was that or, you know, one of the pieces that I discovered in this work, let's call that was that there was a pretty high correlation, just in the data that I looked at, which is, kind of, small-ish sample, although we did have quite a few folks, I think I had 74 multipotentialite students that I use here, not tiny, but small. And I looked at, you know, was there correlation between Myers Briggs type and multi potential reality. And it was super, super clear that in this population of students, there were, a lot of the students who identify with multi potential reality were in fact, these NF idealist types. So a full 23% of those students were the ENFP type. And for those who don't know what that is, right, it's Extroverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiving types. And they tend to be drawn off into careers like motivating and developing talent, sometimes motivational speaking, teaching, counseling, being, kind of, out there helping people reach their potential. And so that was, you know, again, full 23%. And then another 28% of the multipotentialite students were either INFJs or INFPs. And so, you know, all three of those types fall in that idealist category, and they collectively made up a huge percentage, you know, more than half is about half of the population. So I thought that that was pretty significant. And people seem to be quite interested in that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:58
Wow, that's really interesting. What did you find in terms of Clifton strengths or Strengthsfinder?

Melanie Buford 27:04
Yeah, Clifton Strengths is a super interesting instrument, of course, and it has, there are 34 possible strengths that you can get on that test. And you get your top five in order of strength in your results. And so I asked students to share all five of their strengths, all the 100 and something those students and I looked at the 74 that were multipotentialite, the big finding there was that the two most popular strengths that appeared in a ton of students results were one called 'Restorative', it is essentially a problem solving strength. So, you know, people who are energized by figuring out how things work and kind of bringing life back into dysfunctional systems. And so that talent for problem solving appeared in 43% of students results, which is like a huge number, right? For one strength out of 34. The second strength that was almost as common was 'Adaptability'. And again, that's that, you know, kind of, what it sounds like, but taking things as they come, responding to the demands of the moment. And that appeared in 42% of students strength, so again, you know, super high numbers and significantly higher than the general population than they appear in the general population. And if you think about how Emily defines, you know, kind of, multipotentialite superpowers, those sound right, right the site, talents for adapting and kind of interdisciplinary problem solving.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:21
Were there any that were... I'm curious whether you ended up cutting the data this way, too. But were there any that were just not represented across the board?

Melanie Buford 28:31
Yeah, that's an interesting question. The one that really stood out was a strength called 'Focus'. Like, probably sounded funny to you, it sounds funny to me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:40
If you haven't listened to that episode 220, with Emily, go back, listen to it, then re listen to this part, it'll make a ton of sense.

Melanie Buford 28:48
Exactly. Focus was very not commonly occurring, let's just say. In the sample, it was about 1% of the multi students had it. And that is, I did actually look at college students in general. And in general, about 8% of college students have that strength, it appears in about 8% of users. So yeah, so that's obviously much less, it's much more rare in multipotentialite students. And I think it, kind of, makes sense if you think about adaptability, I think adaptability and focus are often kind of at odds with each other. Right? So yeah, that was a pretty significant finding there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:20
That's interesting. So if HTYCers are listening to this right now, and they have felt they're especially susceptible to shiny thing syndrome, then potentially it may not be because of anything else other than maybe you fall into the multipotentialite category. And focus is not one of your strengths necessarily. That's really interesting. I appreciate your sharing. Were there any other what you would consider to be really surprising findings out of it?

Melanie Buford 29:51
I think just the fact that this population, multipotentialite students, so I, kind of, see it in this way. I looked at Clifton Strengths users in general, and then I looked at Clifton Strengths users and the frequency of strength in the quote unquote, college age population. So they do actually break it out, even get data on both of those. And then I looked at my class. And it was just very interesting to compare across those three. And one of the conclusions that I had was that college students look more like multipotentialite, according at least to this survey than Clifton Strengths users in general. And it's an international assessment, and it's assessing adults kind of across, you know, across the world. And one of the things that this is a bit of a leap, one of the things that says to me is that people, at least in this college age, sample, college students are looking more and more like multipotentialite. That's kind of one of the things that I went ahead and jumps potentially that conclusion that I think college students, in general, are increasingly this, kind of, goes back to our earlier conversation, but are increasingly expecting and, kind of, wanting this flexibility and the ability to continuously learn and the ability to solve problems, perhaps using multiple disciplines. And they're demonstrating this ability to adapt, they are less likely to have focus than a general adult population. And if you think about technology, that kind of makes sense, right? I think the different modes of the ways that we work, the ways that we learn, the ways that even, you know, high school students are interacting with the world, and the access to knowledge that we have, I think, sort of supports this idea of multi potential reality. And I think people are increasingly hungry for work that majors and work that expresses all of the different parts of themselves, and not just being asked to really narrow and focused is to, kind of, be cute with it, focus on one thing, they want to express themselves in a number of ways. And so I think this data is good news, potentially. And I'd love to see it expanded. But this is good news for multipotentialite. It's everywhere that I think our schools and hopefully workplaces are beginning to evolve to, kind of, fit more of this type of person.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:59
We've definitely found that strengths, no matter what your definition of strengths have a tendency to be a combination of nature and nurture. And what I think I'm hearing you say, or at least the hypothesis I'm hearing you make is that there's a definite seeable impact, or it appears as though there is a definite seeable impact from our environment, on the development of what strengths rise to the top, if you will. And that's interesting. So then what do you think that that means? What do you think are either the opportunities or dangers that come from that?

Melanie Buford 32:40
Yeah, you know, the strengths and rather the challenges, and the opportunities there, I think are many, I think in terms of opportunities, I think we have the ability, if we can shift, particularly our higher education systems, and perhaps education in general, one, there's the opportunity to shift education so that it sort of acknowledges this need, and it learns, it becomes able to allow people to continuously learn the idea that when you're young, however, you define young, you get a few degrees, and then you're done with school, and then you jump into work. And you work in this one way, long term, which we know is continuously kind of fading over time, that particular model, I think schools have the opportunity to adapt a little bit and be more responsive to this emerging need for flexibility, and the ability to learn in different areas, grow in different areas, solve problems in new ways. So I think that's an opportunity. I think that we have a lot of big problems in the world, I think an increasingly global complex world really needs this. And, you know, maybe this is serendipity, I don't know. But I think the world really needs perhaps like chicken in the egg thing there. But I think the world needs multidisciplinary, flexible thinkers to help us grapple with these complex problems, right. Problems of technology, problems of access, problems of equity, problems of science, and where are the boundaries of ethical science, all of these big problems, I think are increasing as technology allows for us to become so connected. And so I think there's a big need for multipotentialite, like, abilities that I think those abilities are increasingly being called for. And I think it's maybe not a coincidence that folks are increasingly showing an aptitude for that. So I think that's a big opportunity. I would say that the challenge then is that a lot of our systems, especially our big institutions, at least, I would say in the US and perhaps in other places, are really not set up or not necessarily set up to support that kind of grow.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:43
No.

Melanie Buford 34:44
You see, some nonprofit organizations, social enterprises, some higher ed organizations are beginning to shift to create interdisciplinary programs of study and, you know, global leadership programs and social change programs and they're starting to, kind of, get their, degrees are becoming, you know, going online and becoming more flexible, so you see it happening. But I think that some of our big, these big ships like K through 12 education are really hard to turn. They're huge. They've been going for a long time. So I think that will be our challenge is how do we adapt institutions to really fit this demand for having a holistic, authentic career that encompasses all who you are.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:26
We're experiencing that, right, we're living to that right now. My wife, Alyssa, is a teacher and or has been a teacher, she stopped teaching to be at home and then help start this business and everything about eight years ago. But recently, she's gone back to doing a little bit of subbing for friends and things along those lines. And at the same time, our kids are in deep into the K through 12 education system, where my youngest at 8, oldest at almost 12. And this is a daily conversation in our household about, where it is falling short, for lack of a better phrase, and not helping kids harness these strengths that they have. And on top of that, so you know, you mentioned focus, there's definitely, I see it within my kids that complete difference in focus ability based on being a product of their environment, and they're surrounded by a multipotentialite household on top of it, the education system is not set up to be able to work with that. And since it's not set up to work with that, it has a tendency to work against that, which is unfortunate. So yes, we are living that and hope to be able to make a change in that area, too. So very interested in that and glad that you brought that up. Here's something else I'm curious about, though, as you think about some of the things that you learned and your own perspective on this, I'm curious if you believe that there's any type of connection with what you've seen, and differences in risk tolerance for, especially, the college age, or near college age population. Is that something that you have seen? Or is that something that you haven't experienced?

Melanie Buford 37:21
Yeah, that's not something I've thought a lot about. Come to think of it. My instinctual answer is yes and no. I mean, yeah. I, kind of, think it as a good question. I think that perhaps in some ways... okay. So here's the yes part of that. I think that... So for example, every time I start a class, and right now, I'm teaching about 180, 1st year students, in three different class sections. So I go in, and I look at this huge sea of people. And I asked them to raise their hand and, kind of, tell me what they're feeling about things. I asked them things like, "how many of you really are committed to having a career that you're passionate about?" I specifically use that word passion. And I see a ton of hands. And in fact, every semester, it seems like there are more and more students who are saying, like, "I am committed to finding the right career." I see that as a sign that they are willing to, kind of, do whatever it takes to get there. I can, kind of, hear that passion in their voice as they talk about it. So in that way, I would imagine that as, you know, I think multipotentialite careers that really fit you require a certain amount of risk, a lot of the professions that give you a lot of different varieties or variety pieces and capture interests require you to put yourself out there. I think anything that is involves self expression requires you to put yourself out there. And so I see in that way that they are willing to do that, it seems like increasingly willing to do that. So that's a yes. I think that, yes, I get the feeling that they're willing to take those kinds of risks. When I get up in the classroom, and I tell them my career story, which is what I do at the beginning of every semester, they kind of say, I hear a lot of them say, you know, "That really resonates with me." I tell them very explicitly, I've had to take a lot of risks. And I've had some successes, I've had a bunch of failures. And they, kind of, you know, they look very serious, and they nod and are like, "Alright, I can do it." You know, I'm gonna try that. So I see a willingness to engage with it and to really fully commit themselves to this process. At the same time, I sometimes feel that this is human nature, but I feel like students have a real fear of failure. And I think part of that is actually paradoxically related to the fact that they are so passionate. It's like, when you really care about something, failure hurts so much more. Right? And so I see that particularly in my multipotentialite students that they care so much, that they're really willing to put themselves out there to try to find their calling or purpose or however they define it for multiple callings and multiple purposes, you know. I feel for them because I think when it doesn't work out, or they feel what Emily describes is that sense of, kind of, boredom with something that was a passion or those sorts of failures and forms of rejection, perhaps from employers or from programs or whatever they're trying to do, I feel that they have personalise their career so much, that if often the failure gets harder. And so I think that creates a complicated answer to your question and a complicated relationship with taking these big risks.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:30
Well, we see the same thing too. And we do see that it is... and I thought you put it really well, you know, paradoxically, related. And, I mean, we see the same thing, not just in college students, but also people that are in their nearing 30s, or in their 30s, or even in their 40s, too, we see some other distinct differences once and this is grossly over generalizing, but in the folks that we've worked with, and interacted with, once up into 50s, 60s, and 70s. But I think those are also products of environment as well, like we were talking about earlier. But it does seem to be related. And we have that conversation all the time with our students and clients and shoot, we have that conversation in our family at the dinner table at home here, that, "hey, it wouldn't feel like a big deal if you didn't care about it. Whatever it is, whatever went wrong, mistake was made, failure that happened, the thing that occurred, it wouldn't be a big deal if you didn't care about it." So that's actually a good sign. But that I think is a challenge in itself, too, now that we're placing so much more weight, and both in college age generation, but also as a society on doing things that we care about, then that means that some ways, we don't want to fail, because we care about it.

Melanie Buford 41:57
I think that to your earlier point is an opportunity, right? That's the opportunity is to teach students, especially multipotentialite students, and in fact, adults how to respond in those situations. How do you deal with feelings of rejection, feeling lost, feeling uncertain, struggling, when it actually is personal, you're taking it personally, I think that our traditional, this is also a big generalization. But, you know, that sort of way that we traditionally looked at career, it wasn't necessarily supposed to be so personal. You know, there's certain philosophies for sure that say that, career, it doesn't necessarily have to be personal, it could be a way to pay the bills. For a lot of people it isn't, that's somewhat valid. But to the extent that we make it personal, and we're trying to help people find their calling and find their purpose and find passion, which so many of us want, I think that how to manage that feeling when something personal goes down or gets rejected or doesn't seem to be working out is like the most important skill you need to have in order to tolerate the risks, because with risk, there's always failure. Right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:04
Yeah. And you know, that I think leads us to the ultimate irony, which, you know, we went through your story, and you acknowledge that you had to go and collect all those little pebbles along the way and all those learnings and validations and mistakes, and everything else that happened along the way. And the funny thing, funny and also terrible, from whichever advantage point you're looking at it on, is that most people in the world will not find their calling, find their meaningful work, find anything else that really matters to them until they have gone through many of those other things and collected those pebbles along the way and had those mistakes and had those failures, like one does not very regularly happen without the other. And it back to that paradoxical relationship, which is why is this stuff is so hard. So I so appreciate you calling that out. I so appreciate you taking the time and coming on the show. And I so appreciate you doing some things that other people are not doing in the world and piecing together your own career in a way that's really, really good for you. So hats off to you. And thank you very, very much for making the time and taking the time.

Melanie Buford 44:17
Yeah, I appreciate it. I'm glad folks around here in thinking about this stuff and continue to try to advance this work as much as we can because it is hard. So thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:26
Where can people who are interested in finding more about Melanie, where can they track you down? Where can they find you? Where can they learn more about what you're doing?

Melanie Buford 44:36
So I have a website, it's melaniebuford.com folks can reach out to me there. And then I am also on Twitter. Like any introverted person, I have a complex relationship with Twitter, but I do actually have a Twitter handle, it's @melanievbuford (that's v as in Victor) @melanievbuford. So those would be probably the two best ways to get in touch.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:59
Hey, if this episode resonated with you and you want help figuring out how you can apply your multiple desires, your multiple talents, your multiple strengths to your career, then I want to give you two ways to do that. Number one, you can go to this episode and a mini guide that we've created at happentoyourcareer.com/281. Because this is Episode 281, holy crap, 281 episodes, wow, almost at 300, we're gonna have to celebrate. And at the same time, there's something else you should know too. If you want help figuring out how to apply this stuff, and that is really personalized to you, then I would say reach out to us, reach out to our team, and we'll get on the phone with you, have a conversation and, well, will ask you a few questions, more than a few questions actually. Because we want to understand exactly what is going on in your world and what you want to be doing differently. And then we'll give you some advice on how to make that happen and what your path might look like and what you need to consider. And then we'll figure out the very best way that we can help. So either of those should propel you down the path. Also, we have even more coming up for the Happen To Your Career podcast next week.

Emilie Aries 45:15
The debate really is, like, is the American Dream feasible for everyone? And if you look at systemic injustice and oppression, unconscious bias, you know, that's a TBD kind of question.

Scott Anthony Barlow 46:37
That's Emily Aires. She's a returning guest to the Happen To Your Career podcast. It's going to be an exciting conversation about martyrdom, about how to make sure that you're not operating with a victim mindset if leads to burnout, and instead doing exactly the opposite, so that you can thrive in your life. By the way, be sure to share this podcast with somebody you know that could benefit and that'll help us, help many people in this world reach what they want to do, where they want to be going and ultimately help change the future of what work looks like so that we can all focus on our strengths, as well as meaningful work. I'll talk to you next week. Adios. I am out.