245: Should You Plan On Making Less Money When Taking a Job You Love?

Kelly Poulson 00:04
If for you, that priority matters more than the other things and for whatever reason, you've tried a bunch of different ways and feel like this is the right choice for you, and then I'll say, go for it.

Introduction 00:20
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44
What happens when you are ready to go and make a career change and you recognize that you'd much rather be doing work that's so much more meaningful to you? Maybe that means changing industries or maybe that means moving from the private sector to nonprofit. Maybe it means more mission driven work. Maybe it means helping people in a completely different way. Here's the thing, one of the biggest questions and one of the biggest fears and concerns that we have out there is that, if you're going to do these things, how on earth are you going to be able to do them in a way that pays you the same or even more than what you make right now? It seems kind of impossible. There's a lot of things that pop into people's heads and also many questions too, like, "What if I find it an interesting role and a great organization?", "You know, it lines up really well. Is that worth taking a step back.", "Maybe I should take less salary.", or "Should I do something to get my foot in the door or break into that industry or use it as a stepping stone?" So all of these questions have a tendency to pop up and as you might imagine, I think that there are some completely different ways to do this. It turns out we have somebody who I'm really excited to to bring onto the podcast today that also feels the exact same way .

Kelly Poulson 02:12
And I think sometimes people assume that that's what's necessary. It has to be this really drastic change, but the fact of the matter is you have skills and they are transferable. It's just a question of how you're positioning and talking about it, right? So I've also had folks who made that transition, made less money but are thrilled about it because the entire nature of their life and work is different based on that change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:35
That's Kelly Paulson. She's spent her entire career helping organizations, helping people basically just kick a whole bunch of ass and become much better versions of themselves and she's done this in a variety of different ways. She, like me, has worked in HR over the years, but she's also done quite a few other things too. She made career changes, industry changes, you name it. The work's been there. Got multiple t shirts. And she'd been coaching people since 2009. So it's been a year or two as it turns out and most recently she's joined the Happen To Your Career team as one of our career coaches and we're thrilled to pieces to have her on board, but she's gonna help us answer a few of these questions along the way about what should you do, how should you think about salary and how does all this stuff work when you're trying to balance what I need, what I want and meaningful work at the exact same time.

Kelly Poulson 03:37
In college, you know, every 18 year old knows exactly what they want to do and pick something from the start. Obviously. So I was a Psych and English major because I happen to like both of those things and they were the classes that I enjoyed the most. And from there I did an internship with United Cerebral Palsy working with individuals with developmental disabilities. So my original plan was to go back to school, become a psychologist and I had the benefit of having a sister who had done so. She has her PhD and I am very skilled at watching those ahead of me and navigating that and seeing what they went through and didn't go through. So when I graduated, I had an offer to work at a place with individuals with developmental disabilities hands on and I realized it wasn't for me, but what was for me and where I ended up landing was hiring people to work with people with developmental disabilities because I understood the space and I was good with people. It's not uncommon that psych majors end up in human resources, which I will tell you from the start. I loathed and I did the eye roll and all the things that can come along with it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:48
The HR... We call that the HRI role.

Kelly Poulson 04:50
Yeah, yeah. The official. So I did that for probably about my first year and it was high volume recruiting with anyone and everyone, you know, days where I might have had 16 interviews a day. But it was great being thrown into the fire and really learning the ins and outs of how to have those conversation successfully and how to learn from people and you know, what's true for them. So that was my start and I went from there to another similar social services agencies where I was hiring more psychologists, social workers, that type of employee thinking that ultimately at some point I'd go back to school and become one of their psychologists or social workers. There, I started to do with recruiting. I did some training and every now and again I backup the benefits person and you know, a little more generalist work and from there, you know, still a little lost and I didn't really dig. People were nice, it was fine, but it's not like I was enthusiastically running into work every day. And then there was a job at the Philadelphia Zoo, which for me, like who doesn't wanna work at the zoo. I find this interesting because for those of us who go through this process, right? I applied and I thought I was perfect and I didn't hear from them. And probably about two months later it was still up and I applied again because I thought, "You know what? This is it." And reached out to them and ended up on the phone within an hour of that second outreach. And obviously, lo and behold landed the gig. Started there doing again, high volume recruiting as you can imagine, a zoo in a city where it's very seasonal. They do a ton of firing in the spring and summer. And so I was brought on to do that. Inevitably, ended up taking over full time recruiting as well. And it was there that I worked for a boss who got me to see things differently. And for me it was seeing someone who wasn't viewing it from the policy side of things that didn't enjoy that people were afraid of human resources, you know, that didn't like the power trip piece of it that can sometimes come along with it for some individuals. He was about the people and knowing that the people could change the business. And so when I saw it from his perspective, I thought, "Alright, you know, maybe this is something I could do in the long run." Still wasn't sure. During my time there, the benefits person left and I raised my hand and said, "Hey, I know nothing about this, but I know it will make me a more well rounded practitioner. Will you give me shot" and he did. I won't lie. I did not care for that year plus in that role because I am not a benefits person like benefits and comp is not my favorite space to spend my time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:25
What's not your favorite about? Just curious.

Kelly Poulson 07:28
I spent so many hours in spreadsheets and excel and you know, the less human interaction, I think, it was a lot of that and much less the very rarely would I have an employee who had a worker's comp issue or lead issue who would come to see me and I'd help them solve for challenges, but other than that, it was so much more in spreadsheets than I care to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:49
That's super interesting. I loved that part of the introvert in me loved that part of benefits and compense or to designing that aspect, but I can also on the other token, understand how that sounds terrible the most people, quite frankly.

Kelly Poulson 08:05
Yes. Yeah. Well, for me it was interesting, right? So this guy promotes me. And then leaves within six months and I've never done benefits, so I thankfully, those of you who've worked with benefits brokers or the people that broker between you and the carriers and help you guide your strategy. I have great brokers who taught me the ropes as best as I could. So I think that was also part of it. It was I'm stuck in these spreadsheets, not sure I know what I'm doing and oh my goodness, payroll's involved. It's like the last thing in the world you want to mess up. Like, oh my goodness. So, I did the whole, I was kind of acting lead while we looked for a replacement for him and then saw an opportunity... I knew at that point you knew watch you acting lead, sometimes it can be difficult to bring in the new boss and adjust to that once you've done a little bit of everything on the team at that point I had, right? I did training, I did benefits, I did recruiting and employee relations. So I wanted something different and I saw I think a posting for an HR director at a small advertising agency and you know, you always hear about advertising and it's like, oh well that seemed pretty intriguing and I'm curious about what motivates people and so are they and maybe that would be a good fit and it was building their team. So I had the ability to go in and set the tone and really create the foundation and then take it whatever direction I wanted. So for me that was when I walked into an agency, that was where I felt at home, it was like one of those moments where you feel the click and I thought, oh I should have been with this type of industry the entire time because they just let you be creative, right? I mean the people are really driven and brilliant and goofballs and just a lot of fun to work with. But from an HR perspective, you don't get a ton of ability. You don't get a lot of organizations looking for creativity in HR. So I had the ability there to really push the envelope and a variety of different ways and it was at that point that I read a book from the sherm top 10 books of the month, email that comes out, right? They had an interesting title and it prompted my love of coaching really. So I, it was called "Dream Manager" and it was a book about a fictional janitorial services company that had really bad turnover and one of the things that they did to remedy was to hire a life coach for people's personal dreams and goals that was sponsored by the employer with the theory that there's a strong connection between the dreams we chase personally and then how we show up at work. So for me, we talk about inspiration, I became... I was just talking about this this week, you know, I'm pretty woman where there's the guy at the beginning that says like, "What's your dream? This is Hollywood. Everyone has a dream." I became that man. It felt like for the city of Philadelphia and beyond, anyone ever talked to me about it. So I talked to the leadership team, the CEO into letting me launch and that was when I just fell in love with coaching so I did everything I could to devour any piece of content on it. Now I was a generalist so I still did all of the other work, but in my mind if it enabled me to do the work that I love the most, it was okay with me and I could do that. And again, I loved the environment and the people. So I was there for about five years and then another organization reached out to me, a recruiter about another agency looking to do something similar. And at first I'm like, Nah, I don't want to do the agency thing again. Similar size. When you meet with someone and you know you need to work with them. It was one of those moments I met with the COO, she heard about some of the work that I had done and actually they had posted for a business manager role and when I looked at the job description I said to the recruiter, "That's not me." So I'm more than happy to speak to them. I've heard great things about them on the street, however, this isn't me. So when I went and met with them, we had that conversation as well and they rewrote the job description.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:50
I love that. We need a name for that whole when you know, right at work love at first sight or #worklove. I don't know. I'm making this up.

Kelly Poulson 12:02
No, I get you. Something like that. This people are stalling my life. So I joined that agency, similar thing, building, but they were larger and they are in multiple cities. There was an acquisition while I was there and as you can imagine, there's a ton of work that goes into that. But that was all new experiences for me and I also continued with the dream program there and it was during my time there they really doubled down on growth and that's so important to me. So not only did I have the opportunity to do some of what I love, but I had the ability to push. So it was, while I was there that I had a boss who when I started it with someone who specialized in HR and then he moved on, but I had a woman who had been in client services who was moved into that role, so she had never worked in HR and I had worked in agencies but not directly with clients and it was just this lovely partnership because we both knew that we knew our specialties and didn't have any of that weirdness that sometimes can come along with, "you don't know this person, can you ask questions?" And she would pick up the phone and say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this, does that seem insane?" And I would do the same. So, during my time there I had the ability to do a lot of different things both internally and externally. And for me, the externals probably what prompted the most change in terms of my coaching world. So a few things happened. I took a few coaching courses. I didn't take the jump into a certification right away because I didn't think that that was right for me off the bat. And I took a few courses; one, it was through these called, Jenny and Karen, I think it's like coaching with an edge or kickstart your coaching, something like that. And it was a few sessions and I loved it and I thought, "All right, I, where did they go for their certification?" So I looked that up and inevitably enrolled myself in IPEC, the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching. At the same time, I also brought a disrupt HR, which is a movement on, basically shaking things up in the HR space, Ted style talk event type thing where it just brings HR disruptors into a room together. So I founded it and then brought a team together in Philadelphia, all well in the coaching certification program and also started at that time seeing more external clients than I had previously, up until that point, I was internal coaching. So hectic year I learned a lot about myself and about coaching and about, you know, creating an event, a successful event. And throughout all of those I thought, "Wow," you know, sometimes when you surprise yourself, "if I can do all of these things," you know what, sky's the limit basically. And so when I finished my coaching program, I had started probably a few months prior to the end, hinting with my organization saying, "Hey, I absolutely adore it here, however, I don't want to do the HR generalist work anymore even though I was leading a team and it was interesting. I want to double down on learning in development and coaching work and if that is something that can happen here, wonderful. If it isn't, that's okay too, but you probably won't keep me much beyond x date." And this again was several months out. So we build a job description and worked through it myself, my boss at the time who was an AVP of human resources and the CEO and we got to a point where it did come to fruition and I did that for gosh, about a little over a year. So I ran the coaching program. I did coaching for leaders, I did the dream coaching as well. But then I built all of their learning and development, whether internal or external, so it was, I owned the conference budget, but I would also create here's how to have a successful one on one with your team. I did all of the management and leadership training and anything above and beyond that for the organization. It was a great experience. And then during that time I was getting more and more... I also started working with places like The Muse and career contested doing career coaching and I was getting more and more clients there and realizing that I loved that work so much and it got to the point where I, because of just so many responsibilities, I needed to turn those down because they weren't my full time job. And for me that was a sign of, okay, if that's really what you want to do, then go for it. And so we're talking about last year around this time, a little bit earlier, I have noticed I think in June and I gave them three months. So September first was my last full time day at Element Garretson where I was at the time and I've been building my coaching practice since, and you know, this, I, it's not that I just do career coaching. I do though, that's my favorite, I do some leadership coaching and I still do some management training for organizations and there's a lot of variety and I've always dug that. And I think that's something when I spoke earlier to the agency world being right for me, there's a lot of variety and a smaller agency like the pace is crazy, but you also do a lot of different things and wear a lot of different hats. And I think if that was part of why it really spoke to me and stuck with me in the long run. So now here we are a year into entrepreneurship. What a ride it has been. I talk about learning, right? You just so many things during the course of this year and worked with so many phenomenal people. More career coaching work than anything else. And just to see and experience not only to have these conversations, but you know, getting to the end of a call and someone saying, "Oh my gosh, I feel completely differently about all of this." You know, it's just, that's why I'm here. So, you know, we just spend way too much time at work when I say we spend too much time there to feel crappy about it and too many of us do and from not only my HR days, but now it's out there and it doesn't need to be. So I do anything and everything I can to help shift that for people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:12
I think that's one of the really interesting things about seeing multiple sides of the table because you do career coaching now, obviously I do a few other things too, but you know, you do career coaching now for the majority of what you do. But having that experience where you have to talk to a, have to or get to, whichever way you want to look at it if you're in HR, I loved that part of it, but not everybody does. But having the employee that sitting right in front of you that really dislikes their job and some of the aspects of it and it's things that in some ways you have an impact on or influence or control and you know, having seen that side of it, plus, you know, having hired people, plus having the other side of it too where, you know, people are coming to you and they're like, "Hey, how do I, how do I make this happen?" or "How do I look at this differently? I don't want to continue going down the road where I don't like my career and I'm spending 10 hours a day there. Like, that doesn't sound like a good plan to me." But, that was one of the reasons, you know, when we started talking before we brought you onto the team way back when, that I was really interested too just because, I mean partially because I'm a little biased. I have some of that experience myself. But then partially because, you know, you've been there and done that and some of the things that you've done really stood out to me too in terms of, you know, not just accepting what came your way, but leveraging some of those things that came your way and turning those into your own opportunities like you mentioned, hey, they rewrote the role and not just accepting the situation that I'm going to leave and I'm going to go and do my own thing and it's going to be this way or the highway, but then opening up a conversation and turning it into a collaboration to be able to ultimately get what you want over a longer period of time and get a variety of opportunities and experiences that really are much more on your terms, quite frankly. And I love that. So, nicely done, first of all. Yeah, absolutely. And I, what isn't always obvious when we have these types of conversations is just the sheer amount of thought and work and effort and both mental effort and sometimes physical effort too that goes into creating those types of situations for yourself. So I just really appreciate that on that level too. But now that you have all of this knowledge and background and all kinds of other things that have a tendency to come with... been there and got the tshirt, enough tshirts to make a quilt sort of thing. I think we should tackle a few questions because we actually had a several listener questions that came in from, well, I think it's one listener in particular, but we've had some really similar questions come in from other people too. So let me set up the story here. This email and we've received a number of very similar emails really recently in the last month or two here by two months. And you know, this particular listener was really finding that she was falling into a lot of the worries and anxieties and questions that have a tendency to come along with salary about what is possible, what is impossible, you know, what circumstances are more likely and all the things that we have a tendency to do in our heads. So I'm just going to read part of this for you. And she asked several questions in here and I'd love to just break it down sort of piece by piece here. This comes from Lauren by the way. She says that, "Hey, I am worried about, you know, some of the worries, anxieties, questions that career changes have about salary." And she said, it goes on to say money comes up tangentially in many of the episodes, she's talking about the podcast. She's a listener of the podcast. You know, often around how to build a runway before you leave your current role but I can't recall a dedicated in depth discussion about salary. So she goes onto then to say, "It'd be great to hear some specific examples of people who successfully shifted to work that fits them and increase their compensation or if it pairs out in your experience, people who accepted less salary in a new industry and don't regret it because they're happier either because the work is so gratifying or it allows the lifestyle that suits them better." Okay. Now I want to do that and I want to provide some of these stories along the way here too. But then she goes on down some really specific questions and she says "In general, should career changers be prepared to accept us to the lower salary?" So what do you think? Tell me a little bit about what you've seen and what you believe about that.

Kelly Poulson 18:31
Sure. Well, so I feel like I've seen it all in terms of, have I had people who have transitioned into roles that spoke more to who they are and they aren't more? Yes. Have I seen people make lateral moves? Yes, I have. And I also have seen people, you know, take a step back slightly financially. I'm not known, I know, as chopped their salary in half and I think sometimes people assume that that's what's necessary, like it has to be this really drastic change, but the fact of the matter is you have skills and they are transferable. It's just a question of how you're positioning and talking about it, right? So, I've also had folks who made that transition made me less money but are thrilled about it because the entire nature of their life and work is different based on that change. And I think a lot of it comes down to values as well. You know, like what matters most to you. And if though, if some folks that I talked to, money doesn't even come up at first, which I think is unrealistic because I mean we all have bills to pay and life's to lead, but I think that's an assumption that a lot of people make is in order to make this change, I have to start from scratch and go to entry level salary. And then of course, if that's how you're thinking about it, it makes it a much more overwhelming and scary change when change is scary enough to begin with.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:25
That's super interesting. To build on that, I find people have a tendency to go where they set their target, like where they're pointing their arrow, if you will, and if they assume that they are going to make a lower salary than very often I've seen those people that go into it thinking they have to end up making lower salary or vice versa. One of the things that we've seen here, you know, working through people with career change bootcamp or in our signature coaching program or in any capacity that we've worked with people over the years, it's been really interesting because we've observed that the vast majority of those people have either stayed the same when they're accepting new jobs, new roles. They have either stayed the same or increased their salary. And you know, we have countless examples of that. But part of that, and you and I were talking a little bit about this before we hit the record button, part of that is them coming to us and then a lot of times we're doing some of the harder indepth mental work with them initially to define what they want and sometimes that is around money too. And then we're telling them, "Hey, guess what? Usually what happens is we see peoples stay the same or above and that's where they point their arrow and then unsurprisingly that's where they end up too." So there's a little bit of that built into it as well. But I can also think of other situations like, you know, we had, we worked with a woman named Erica and she was in digital marketing and she had made the move to a totally different state and everything like that. Didn't have a lot of contacts there, whatever. But ended up actually deciding that she needed to accept less. Like that's one of the things I was in her mind. And that was kind of where she was going at first it ended up encountering her, started to work with her and realize that, "Hey, you don't actually have to do this, this is the direction that you have to go." And the reason she was thinking about that initially is because he really wanted more flexibility. Like that's something she felt like she was missing for a long period of time and it would make the role right for her in a lot of different ways. And ended up after everything was done fast forward, I ended up accepting a role that offered essentially the same amount of money but less hours, which was fantastic, right?

Kelly Poulson 24:53
Right. Wins all around.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:54
Yeah, wins all around. But I don't think that that would have happened until she had adjusted her where she was aiming, quite frankly. So I think that there's a lot of those. But what about a different, you know, she asked Lauren in this case, who sent in the question asks another question too. Well, what about different sectors? And she gives the example of, you know, what if you're moving from private sector to government or you're moving to a nonprofit or you want to go and do mission driven work to helping people, like what should you expect there?

Kelly Poulson 27:26
I mean, like similar to what you said, I mean you likely will get what you expect, right? But I think that, sure, people make assumptions sometimes that nonprofits. Obviously, there's a scale in terms of some of them probably have more than others, but some of them are businesses like anywhere else and they realize that they need to pay more to get the talent that they want in order to continue to evolve and grow and forward their mission. So I think often people assume that they're going to make meeting you in order what for a mission driven organization and they need to do that. But I've had people transition from government roles go into nonprofits and it was either a lateral or just higher than what they were making. I don't think, like in your example earlier, I don't know that they worked less hours. However, the happiness that the meaningful work that they were doing more than made up for the experiences that they had previously.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:24
Yeah. And sort of the way that I've thought about this over the years too, to kind of build on what you're saying is that take like nonprofit for example. Nonprofit as a whole on average pays less than some other industries, but to your point like kinda where you kind of intend on going has a tendency to influence that and where you went up and I think, you know, good evidence of this too, is, jeez, not that long ago we had Jackie on the podcast, she ended up working for a organization that is very meaning driven, falls into that nonprofit sector as well and she basically went to them and said, "Here's what I need." And you know, they were very open to that conversation and she got exactly what she needed and wanted out of the deal. And without sharing exactly what she made, you know, it was an amazing deal for her. And it was well above what the averages are. And I think when you're in this type of situation, it is helpful to remember you don't need all the jobs, you don't need the industry average, you don't need all the things that are making up that average. You just only need one.

Kelly Poulson 29:40
Yeah. It only takes one. That's funny. You're right. Sometimes people do, I mean not sometimes, often people get in their own way in terms of they decide, "Okay, well there's no way I'll get this," and then that thought process continues and then they're feeling not great in their day to day and then it's just all swarming around in here. But sometimes it's the competence and willingness to say, "Oh, you know what? On paper, this looks really great. If this is your range and this is my range and you have no ability to be flexible with me, then it's probably not okay for me." Right? Like I'm going to walk and feeling comfortable and confident that knowing when you close one door, another role open, that's a part of it, as being willing to say, you know, "This isn't the right fit for me." And trusting that the thing that is right for you will appear, but if you spend all your time worried about those other opportunities that for whatever reason might not have been the one you could miss out on them because you're just too focused on what didn't turn out as opposed to what could.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:45
That's super interesting. I think you're totally right. It seems like it's a, first of all, when you're in that situation, there is all the, what'd you call it, the swarming or the, like the whirling around or whatever you said. I think that that's a great way to describe what happens because you've got all these emotions, like you worked hard to be able to get this offer in the first place. And then it's like, well, what if they don't want to accept what I really want? Should I ask him? Am i going to lose it? And like all the other things that have a tendency to float around our heads. But then the other side of it too is like having the confidence to recognize that as you said, when something closes, another door opens and it is difficult, like calling a spade a spade, it is difficult to do that when you're in that situation. It's much easier for me as a coach, you know, sitting on the other side of seeing that literally thousands of times where we know that to be true. And but I think that's part of the reason why, going back to, you know, some of the folks that we've worked with, I suppose that's part of the reason why they might have a higher than average success rate around, you know, obtaining higher salaries and things along those lines too. Because if it's just you go in through that, then you're stuck with all the lean and everything versus if you have somebody there that's telling, you know, "Look, I've seen this thousands of times. Here's how it works. It's going to be okay. Like on the other side of us." So yeah, I can totally see both sides. Here's a different question though, along the same lines that Lauren had asked, she says, "What about if I find an interesting role with a great organization that suits my value, suits my interests, is it worth actually taking a step back in responsibility or salary to," and she uses quotes "to break into that industry or use something as a stepping stone?" This is an interesting question, but I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

Kelly Poulson 32:41
Well, I think a lot of things are worth it, if you can get to that place, whatever that place is for you. Again, don't assume that you have to in order to get to that place. I think a lot of people just automatically make that assumption, so knowing that you know, maybe in some instances you will have to or need to, but it's not a have to or need to, it's a choice. Right? And if for you that priority matters more than the other things and for whatever reason you've tried a bunch of different ways and feel like this is the right choice for you, then I'd say go for it. I mean, you don't need to, right? But I think that very few people that I have worked with that need big transitions when they really did the work on the upfront right to get crystal clear on what matters to them and really try and make change and think it all through because it's a process and it's scary and it's scary for you know, any single, any person, no matter what level they are in their career, senior, junior or whatever. But if at the end of the line is this dream gig and you know, in your heart of hearts it is, then I don't see anything wrong with taking a step back. But what I do, disagree with assuming that you have to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:55
I love that. It almost seems like that should be sort of a red flag for, like alarm bells should be going off. Anytime you find yourself saying the statement like, well I feel like I have to because it's gonna allow me to get my foot in the door or I feel like I have to because I don't know, insert your reason or justification here. That in itself and actually know that I think about that as I've kind of started using this probably about 10 years ago for myself in some ways where like anytime I find that I should be doing something where I find that should or have to, is coming out of my mouth then it's probably time to reassess. Is that a real thing? Is that or is that just my perception of what must be done? Because to your point, like it's, it really is a choice and it can be a choice, but only if you recognize that it's a choice.

Kelly Poulson 34:49
Yeah. I'm with you on the should front and that's one of those words and anytime I hear it I go, "Oh, what's that about? Like okay, clearly something's going on here. Let's take a step back." And I haven't said that clients too. And like whenever you hear, you've probably heard Scott, that people say like shooting all over yourself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:07
Yeah.

Kelly Poulson 35:08
So, whenever you hear that word, that's a clue that something's going on. Perhaps you're thinking that you need to do something that you don't want to do when you may not need to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:18
That is a yes, please do not should. But what about this idea of foot in the door? How about or breaking into an industry or things along those lines because that is one of the most common pieces I think that I've heard again and again, like people come to me all the time saying, "Hey, here's my idea. Okay. So here's my plan." Like I'll ask them, "Okay, what's your plan if we're not helping you? Like what are you going to go do it?", "Well, I'm going to, I'm talking to these people over here and seeing if I can get this," you know, insert lower level role here "because I think it's going to allow me to break into the industry or get my foot in the door and everything along those lines." And I'm curious, I've got my own set of perceptions, but have you seen that be an effective approach? And if so, under what circumstances you kind of, seen that be an effective approach?

Kelly Poulson 36:19
Yeah, I mean I've seen it occur a few times. Most of my background in advertising. So I work with a lot of advertising clients. I've seen people come from like senior roles and insurance companies to be, you know, an associate level and an ad agency. And again, when you're doing something like that, I think you do have the financial impact and you can rise the ranks pretty quickly. But I don't know that it's a necessity. And I've also had career changers from all walks of life. Say I'll do anything and everything to get in there. And I think that's part of it too. When I was the recruiter, someone saying "I'll do anything and everything" for a variety of reasons, why, I'm happy that they're hungry and want it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:03
Does make you cringe a little bit though?

Kelly Poulson 37:06
Right. But like value yourself, you're bringing something to the table. So what I often say to people is you, what is it about not having experience in this industry that's going to be amazing for this organization if they bring you in? Because guess what, how many, like we know all day, everyday we hear about diversity and diversity can be defined in a variety of different ways and diversity of thought is a big part of that and I used to, any industry probably trades employees left and right all the time because then you get it's easier to train or whatever it is. They already understand what the business is about then they're not necessarily asking the questions that will change the course of your business because they had been immersed in it for so long that they can't see the forest for the trees. So how do you lean into, "Yes, I've worked in this industry and here's how I think it will benefit your organization that I'm going to bring this different perspective." That's been a really interesting way I think for, you know, when I was recruiting, when I heard that, I'd be like, "Yeah, okay, I get it. Let's talk a little bit more" and I think that was where a hiring manager would be more intrigued and then just saying, "I'll do anything and everything. You know, you guys have a cool website"

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:25
So behind the scenes that's... those are things that get uttered in interviews constantly for a hiring professionals that do that all the time, those can be red flags and sometimes not as good ways depending on the circumstances and everything, certainly. But yeah, I'm laughing because I can't tell you the amount of times where I've heard both those things.

Kelly Poulson 38:49
Well, it's funny you say foot in the door when I was a recruiter or someone actually sent me a plastic foot once with a resume.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:53
Oh yeah? This is my foot in the door.

Kelly Poulson 38:56
Hey, I found it disturbing. I couldn't tell you the person's name, right? Like, I wouldn't, I, first of all I couldn't, but I also don't remember it, but I remember the uncomfortable feelings I had when that plastic foot showed up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:09
We have an article on our site and you can search standing out and we give three different rules to be able to stand out in a positive way and they're really great rules of thumb might almost be a good, I don't know, the laws of standing out because like this, like that person stood out, but it was creepy and it wasn't effective and you don't remember their name till to this day. I had a similar experience where we had somebody applying for a management position that, for all intents and purposes, didn't have the things that she sent us didn't indicate any way that she had any kind of leadership experience whatsoever. But she did send us an 8 by 10 glossy photo of... and it was autographed. So, there was that. And again, I don't remember her name to be quite honest and we didn't bring her in for an interview, but similar. She stood out in the fact that you would, like you'd remember that.

Kelly Poulson 40:08
Autograph too?

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:09
Autographed. Yes. Your experience was as a diesel mechanic too, which is nothing wrong with that. It just, it didn't really fit together in a way that allowed us to be able to say yes to the next step. Okay. So here's, I think some of the biggest reasons why people have a tendency. Why we as a tendency as human beings have, we gravitate toward these types of questions like, you know, should I accept last or should they take a step back? Where am I going to have to take a step back? And we have all the worries around it. I think it really is more about those fears that happen. And you know, Lauren, another part of the email that she sent, and I'm just gonna share just a little bit of this. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but she goes on to say, you know, "there's kind of the fear and thought gremlins that creep in for me." And she just describes a little bit about her situation. "Although my current work is unfulfilling, I've worked really hard for a decade to establish myself in this particular profession. So what if I let go of this in order to your stability I've achieved in order to pursue more meaningful work, but the industry I really want to contribute pays less than I've earned previously." It seems like a bitter pill to swallow and yeah, there's a lot of assumptions made in that, some of which we've already talked about, but you know what advice would you give to Lauren or anybody who has similar thoughts to Lauren overall that's facing that type of thing?

Kelly Poulson 41:41
Yeah, I guess in those instances I have a bunch of questions, but you can ask yourself like what if that happens? What is the worst that could happen in that situation if you're not happy in what you're doing now, continuing to do what you're doing now is not going to suddenly change overnight. So fast forward 10 years. Is it going to matter that you have the salary that you have and the title that you have and the level that you have? Or are you going to regret the fact that you didn't try to make a change? So you know, obviously I know that you're experiencing a lot of fears and stress in there already. I don't want to add to that, but I also think that people need to think those things through, right? Because the, "what if" you're never going to know until you take action and I think the what ifs will keep you paralyzed and inaction for as long as you'll let them and some of it is back to like what you really, what matters most to you because if it is the prestige or some people, and this is not in any way judgment, there are some people that it's like, "Yep, my job is my job," right? "I go, I make money, I come home and then I live my life." And they're completely different things where in theory they think they're completely different things. Right? And that's okay too, but make that an intended choice on your part, not just I put my head down and 10 years went by and here I am and now I'm stuck with it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:16
Totally agreed. And I think a couple of the things that you said earlier too is there's some situations in which it could be right to make that type of change, however you'd have to decide for yourself, and more importantly to build on what you had said at some point you have to move forward to even find out. Now, what's really interesting is the studies that are out there that evaluate this sort of thing and evaluate what ends up in regret versus what doesn't end up in regret nearly every single time the answer is, should I stay or should I go? It is the stain and wondering the ends up in regret. And a very, very rarely the going that has a... the going rarely has a as a likely chance of ending up in regret. So almost always statistically the answer to should I stay or should I go is go. Which is crazy. It feels that feels very counterintuitive from how we feel in the moment.

Kelly Poulson 44:35
Yeah. I also find sometimes it can be valuable to ask the people around you, and I don't mean for their opinion so to speak, but if you don't pay attention to what you're saying, like sometimes you can say to your significant other, your best friend or whatever, I would do anything. I would earn half of what I'm earning now to not have to deal with this anymore, but you don't know that you're saying it, right? Like sometimes people in your life can say you've said, and that's partially why the coach is valuable, right? Because that's what we're there to do. Notice and mirror it back and ask the questions. But sometimes even those people in your world can say, you know, if you're considering this or that and say, "I heard you say I've worked with people." I can remember them saying they hated the industry that they are in multiple times and like a 10 minute timeframe to me. And it's like, well, "What do you think is going to change about this whole industry for you? Because you say this all the time, whether or not you realize it, sometimes that can be helpful to prompt us to make change when perhaps we're not noticing it. We're just in the feeling part of it."

Scott Anthony Barlow 45:38
Yeah, completely agree. We also had something else that pops up in my mind about this particular question is the whole, I've worked really hard for this and I'm afraid of giving it up. We've had, I think we've had a lot of people actually that have felt that same way and if you go back and listen to past episodes of the podcast, one of them in particular is a woman named Jenny and she felt very like she had a PhD. She had worked a ton for to be able to get to where she wanted. And even though like the job was in the industry was completely draining her on a daily basis, she still could not get rid of this from her head, like it would continually pop up in there. It's like, "Am I giving up everything that I've worked for?" And I find that a lot of the times when you get to that type of situation, it really helps to reframe it, first of all, when people make these changes, even if they're moving to another industry or another type of role or whatever it is, rarely do they feel like on the other side that they're actually giving up something. So recognizing that first of all, but then the second piece is reframing it to, how can I leverage what I had my experiences, which doesn't necessarily mean you have to go and do exact same thing, but how can I leverage it, my experiences that I have and the insight that I have from doing these things in the past into what is going to create a really rewarding and fulfilling opportunity moving forward. And of course, part of that is to your point earlier, like there's some sometimes difficult reflective and thought work deciding what really creates an amazing career opportunity for you moving forward. But then the other side of it is, is just completely looking at it in different... it's the same situation either way. Like, but one situation, you feel like you've lost something and the other situation, you feel like you've gained something just totally depending on how you look at it.

Kelly Poulson 47:46
Right. I mean, every step you've taken has gotten you to where you are.

Scott Anthony Barlow 47:50
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, I so very much appreciate you taking the time and making the time coming on the show here. By the way, if you want to know more about Kelly as she's joined our team, there's a couple places that you can certainly learn more. One is you can go to happentoyourcareer.com/245 and you'll find everything that we talked about within this episode and also links to Kelly's profile on our site, a Kelly's coaching profile on our site. And then, you can actually go and go to happentoyourcareer.com and search Kelly and that'll pop right up to. Kelly, any... thank you, first of all. And this has been amazing and really appreciate it and I have also really appreciated the opportunity getting to know you for the last, jeez, I guess we first emailed probably like eight months ago or something, right? Nine months ago, maybe closer to a year. I can't even remember at this point. It's gone quick.

Kelly Poulson 48:55
Yeah, it has, but it's been fun the whole time, so that's a good sign.

Scott Anthony Barlow 49:01
Okay. That is a great sign. All right. Thanks so much.

Kelly Poulson 49:06
Thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 49:07
Hey, I hope you love that conversation with Kelly as much as I did and we've been so excited to have her on the Happen To Your Career team as a career coach and we have even more coming up for you next week, right here on the Happen To Your Career Podcast. What happens when you want to enter a completely new stage of life and you want to step away or need to step away in order to really get some perspective? Well, we have somebody on here who's done some pretty audacious things and had a lot of courage to be completely changed her life and the life of her family.

Robbie Kaplan 49:45
It was kind of that pivot situation as the company was changing, my personal life was also changing and at first we got to take a couple trips and I would work remotely still, you know, be in touch with everything that was going on and also have vacation time, but after doing that for a year or two, a couple of extended trips, I was like, this isn't working quite right. There's too much going on in the business and there's too much that I want to be doing personally.

Scott Anthony Barlow 50:12
Tune in next week to find out how Robbie went from a pretty amazing job that actually was pretty great but still completely changing their life and ended up in a three and a half month long road trip which ended passing through Moses Lake and our studio. All right, we'll see ya next week, right here on Happen To Your Career. Until then, I am out. Adios.