544: Strategic Career Transition: Leveraging Your Strengths to Change Careers

Nick Neves 00:01

I didn't want the success of my job to be determined by things that I didn't want to do or wasn't comfortable with.

Introduction 00:13

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:37

A long time ago, I used to work for Target. And I did Human Resource Management and Leadership for Target. And it was a pretty wonderful opportunity. I love the company. They took great care of me. Much of the leadership training that I got, and have to this day, came from Target putting time and money, and effort into me. So I'm forever appreciative of that. Also, at the same time, I was working for them and they decided that they wanted to move their HR that supported stores more and more and more into the stores and more into the standard retail environment. Now, that was exactly the right decision for them. But it really wasn't that great for me, to be honest. And that's something I have seen over and over and over again, where people go through, they get a job, it's amazing opportunity, and then the company changes or it evolves into something else and it's no longer amazing. It's not even awesome. It's the opposite of that. That happens.

Nick Neves 01:56

I would ask them, like, what does a successful person look like in this role? What personality traits fit a type of person in this role? That confirms to me that I am moving in the right direction, and looking for the right jobs, and I can be successful and build my confidence back up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:10

That's Nick. In less than two years, his customer success role began to change to, well, being almost all a sales role. And as we begin to uncover his strengths and define what he really wanted in life, he knew that he had to make a change. But how do you move from a role that's no longer ideal to one that actually uses your strengths? All right, well, spoiler alert, Nick does a really nice job of this. And I want you to listen for how that took place, how that actually happened. But let's start out with Nick explaining here, how he went from uncovering his strengths to making connections and having conversations to learn what roles could fit him and finally, landing in a role that does play to his strengths.

Nick Neves 02:54

I was in a job working in customer success, which for those who don't know, it's kind of like customer support with, like, a little bit of sales mixed in, and was doing this job, it was kind of morphing more into a sales role, which is just not for me. So..

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:06

What was that for you? I'm super curious.

Nick Neves 03:08

My own personality, I don't think you know, I'm more of an introverted kind of behind-the-scenes, analytical thinker. I like doing more operational stuff versus just hammering phones all day, filling your day with talking to people. You know, I didn't want the success of my job to be determined by things that just I didn't want to do, or wasn't comfortable with. That's why I, you know, this isn't sustainable for me. And there was a couple other things too, with just the way the company was, the culture. And there's a multitude of different reasons. But that was the biggest reason for me, it just did not feel like the right fit. Even it was confirmed with me and with my manager, kind of yearly reviews and things like that. She's like, "No, you're a great team player, people love you on the team, but like really need you to be more like this person." And she compared me to, like, our top salesperson. I'm like, I will never be like that person ever. So I was, like, if they want me to be this type of person, then they hired the wrong person, and that I was okay with that. Because at first when I was doing the job, my confidence took it. And I definitely, that resonated with, you know, a lot of your previous podcast guests, I want to talk about that. And I was like, I totally understand where they're coming from, where you think you're just not doing a good job and all that and you realize, okay, it's really, this isn't working out. And I could totally excel doing something that's more of a natural fit. So that's where I started, I was into customer success, and then ultimately led me to work in finance. So I can kind of get into the transition of that because I know it's kind of a complete one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:29

Well, let me ask you first about that stage where you were in this customer success type role. And clearly, it was outside of your, not just comfort zone, but also in many ways, it is requiring you to be a ton of who you are not and also didn't want to be. But I think as you mentioned, so many people will be in that situation and they will say "I should be able to do this or I.." they end up beating up on themselves, in one way or another, and impacts confidence. So what allowed you to get to the point where you realized that you were okay with it? Because I also heard you say, "Hey, I was okay with it at some point." But what took place for you to get to that point where you realize, "Look, it's just the wrong fit."?

Nick Neves 05:13

Yeah, that's a great question. And just putting myself back into that scenario. That's exactly how I felt first. I was in the job for maybe two to three years. First year, I was definitely beating myself up, thinking I'm not doing a good job here. You know, that feeling continued. But I think the turning point was when I started really sitting down and putting in the time and effort, figure out why this wasn't a good fit. And I took... It was even before I found Happen To Your Career, I took the Myers-Briggs test, which was super helpful. Pairing that with the personality tests and strength tests that you guys do as well. And then I ultimately stumbled upon you guys and did some of the 8-day mini course and all that stuff. That free exercise kind of put everything into perspective for me and made me realize there are strengths and weaknesses to a person. And sometimes it's just a square peg in a round hole, right? And that just slowly, it wasn't like an overnight thing, right? It definitely took some weeks to kind of figure that out. And then as I continued with the job, like I said, I had those meetings with my manager, he was telling me he wanted me to become this person. I knew I wasn't going to become that person. So that's when it really clicked for me. And I was just like, "Okay, I should be able to do a different job." And even further along, through the career change bootcamp program, you always have a little bit of doubt here and there as you're going through, right, especially at the beginning, but as I did the interviewing process of other people in other roles departments that I was interested in, and I would ask them, like, "What does a successful person look like in this role? What personality traits fit that type of person in this role?" That confirmed to me that I am moving in the right direction and looking for the right jobs, and I can be successful and build my confidence back up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:48

Let me ask you about that. Just for a little bit of background for everyone else, one of the things that will often do is help people design many experiments where you sometimes are having conversations, and I think that's probably the part that you're referring to, and where you are looking at a variety of different roles and trying to confirm that those might be potentially a direction for you. So what were some of those roles that you were looking at they were talking to people about at the time? Just curious.

Nick Neves 07:16

It started off very broadly. But then eventually got a little more niche. I actually connected with someone else who is in the program, actually. And he worked in accounting previously. And turns out, we had a lot of the same strengths. So I was like, he'd probably be a great person to talk to, get a perspective on, you know, using the job, he has the same strengths, it would be a good fit for me. I kind of honed in on accounting, and really matched up with a lot of my strengths. And I liked the structure. I like working with numbers, all that stuff like routine. So going off of that, trusting my strengths and saying, "Okay, I think this is a good place to start and kind of proceed that." That was the main role that I was really looking at. As I went along, I realized I had to do a slight pivot where, you know, accounting, it's tough to get into if you don't have the degree and all that stuff. So I was kind of hitting roadblocks there. But I was able to find a way to kind of get my foot in the door, almost like a stepping stone into accounting, which is the role I'm in now, which is called order operations. It's got a lot of different names in different companies. But basically, you're the middleman between sales and accounting and finance. So it was great tip– my background working in sales and customer support. But I'm kind of moving away to a different side of the house that I want to move into. So our long-winded question probably went off topic there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:27

This is great. Because a couple of things that aren't always obvious when we talk about these types of transitions because you've done a great job making this type of pivot. And I think so many people would not even realize that it's possible to make that severe of a change, I'm gonna call that severe for just a second. Severe in the best possible way. Severe sounds sometimes like a negative word, but I mean it in a really, really positive way that is different than almost 180 types of change. And one of the ways that you have found to do that is by heavily leveraging not just your strengths, but also your past experiences too. And I think that gets so undervalued as a portion of this process because I think so many people hear these types of podcasts or they recognize the need to do something different. And then think, "Well, I need to make this 180 type of change. I'm gonna be a scuba diver." Or something like that, like, it's gonna be that drastic change in one way or another. And that tendency is to say, "Okay, I'm going to, like, magic it to happen." And that's not how it works in reality. And in reality, it happens much more like you have done where we are heavily leveraging those things that you're bringing to the table. In this case, you had some amazing experiences in both sales even though that's not what you wanted to do forever, but also customer success. And also a lot of the pieces that come along with that, the skill sets that come along with that too. And a really nice job.

Nick Neves 09:56

Thank you. No, I was just gonna say before I forget, that really reminds me of, I didn't really realize it at the time, like you said, you're making that big change, and you're like, I don't even know if I have the transferable skills or all that. And number one, I help talking to people figure out what are the transferable skills, you know, the interview is huge, it was so helpful, just to get a sense of everything, you know. I actually talk to people in the jobs that make you realize, okay, you're just looking at job descriptions all day, like, it's kind of just monotonous. And then you kind of hit a wall there. So for me, I was really able to figure out, okay, I don't have the accounting background. But I definitely have transferable skills, work with Excel a ton, and I've done process improvements, which is big in that field, in my job. And that's what I enjoyed doing that. So once you started talking to people, you realize, okay, this is a little more doable than I thought. And I ended up getting a lot of compliments from people, even if I didn't end up getting the job, they were like, "Your resume looks like an accounting resume, I'm surprised you haven't had any experience in that field." So that was a good confirmation there that I was doing it the right way, and ultimately worked out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:59

That is awesome. I want to dig into a few of those pieces here for just a minute because it did ultimately work out whatever we're talking about, like nine plus months or so of work to make it ultimately workout. And you mentioned some of those conversations that you were having. Very often, when we think about making a change, depending on what people decide they need and is what is most valuable to them, you know, what their goal is, and making this change that can often dictate whether you focus on roles first, or whether you focus on organizations or environments first. For you, it was much more about roles. And so you started having some of those conversations. But I'm curious, could you describe a couple of those conversations and what those actually looked like, what led up to them, how you got to chat with a couple of those people, and what even talked about during some of those conversations.

Nick Neves 11:49

Going back, I definitely remember struggling with the roles versus organizations debacle. And I thought, well, maybe I can do both, I can look for roles within industries that are interesting to me. You know, I was looking, I'm a big sports fan. I love golf. So there's a couple golf manufacturing companies and sports manufacturing companies around Boston. I was looking at those. And I ultimately decided that, for me, I think the role was just more important just because maybe it was the nature of the job itself. Like with accounting and finance, you're doing a kind of finance in the back office, and it's kind of just that, right? I think if someone was moving into, like, customer success or something else like that, where you're kind of on the front lines of the industry, you might look for companies to put an emphasis on that. So I think it really depends on the role. So for me through conversations with people, it didn't really seem like it was that different industry to industry, I didn't want to move to a massive company. But in terms of, like, the industry, I was like, I'm kind of industry agnostic at this point, that kind of started there figured that out. And like I said, talking to people through the informational interviews, and kind of open that up. And even also doing some accountability groups at the time, I don't know if you guys are calling them from different now, but being able to talk to other people who are going through the career change process on the call, we were able to bounce ideas back and forth, when I would explain to them, "Hey, I'm kind of struggling with this. Do I go with company roles? You know, go for other industries?" So they were able to kind of help me talk through that and ultimately decided that role was kind of the way to go for me. So that was another helpful thing, too, is to have not only my coach but also just the community itself is very helpful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:27

That's amazing. It makes me really happy for so many different reasons. I think it's probably useful to acknowledge here that this progression, I'm going to call it a progression, is always so much easier when you're looking backwards. You and I were chatting at the very beginning of our conversation. I think before we even hit the record button about how you were trying to get yourself back into the mindset of what life was like a year ago at this time when you were starting to really think about making this change and starting to really move on that. But it's been a year since that point in time. And it was definitely no small amount of work. And one of the things I heard you say earlier was, "Hey, I had a conversation with another person who was working with HTYC and they had a past background in accounting. And that's what led to me affirming that this could be something that I take a really close look at." And then that led to other conversations that you had, where you were taking tidbits away for different types of roles, which led to the next thing, which led to the next thing, which led to the next thing, and ultimately, only then after nine months of breadcrumbs, if you want to call it that, following each of those little bit breadcrumbs led to the actual opportunity. So the question that I wanted to ask you there is, that's a lot of different pieces to be able to make this happen for yourself and you've done a great job with that. But what were some of the hardest parts of that process for you?

Nick Neves 14:53

I will say what definitely helped me was the whole structure of it. You know, having the modules to go through, you kind of look ahead, you knew what to expect, I mean, not totally knew what to expect in terms of the program and what you were going to be working on. So I really liked the structure. So I'd recommend people if you like having that structure, it definitely helps. But there's parts where it sounds like it was a seamless transition, right? And now I'm here a year later, and I have a new job. But I'd say that the hardest parts were, like we discussed before grappling with the, where do I even focus on. Do I focus on roles? Do I focus on industries? Do I focus on companies like, you know, some people might be looking to move, or they just don't care about location, that throws a whole another wrench into everything. So I think the way you guys do it were, you kind of talked about building that frame, right, and putting the pieces of the puzzle together. Another thing too that was really helpful was building out your kind of life profile, if you will. So you kind of put like parameters around what you're looking for to make everything kind of less daunting, right? So you kind of have indicators or parameters of what you want to look for. So you're not casting such a wide net that you're overwhelmed. So that at first it was overwhelming, but it was able to kind of hone in from there. And then I think a little bit further down the road once, you know, I started interviewing and all that, that's, you know, you deal with rejection a lot too. You feel like you found a really good fit. And you made a really good case of why you're able to make this change and why you fit in, you know, you might not have the traditional background and you do everything you can, and you might not get a job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:26

Was there an example of where that happened for you?

Nick Neves 16:28

Yeah, a couple of times. You know, there was kind of some entry-level accounting jobs where I was able to network my way into those jobs. So way more effective, I think, than just going on job boards, right? So I was like I already have in here and that person, whether they're just being polite, or whatever, maybe they think you're a great fit, and they pass along your resume. I worked with my coach, you know, on my resume to tailor it to each and every job that I was doing– tailoring my interview prep and my cover letters, and all that stuff. I felt super prepared and very confident that I would at least get a callback for a lot of the jobs, right. A lot of them did, which looking back, it's like, well, you're moving into a totally new field where you don't have accounting degrees and all that stuff. So I get it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:12

Well, I think there's another element there too. I would argue that that actually worked out so much better for you. Even the rejection sucks, like that is where you ended up, at least from the outside looking in appears to be a far better match than starting in beginning accounting. Because you bring a lot more to the table, you have so much more experience and skill sets than just starting from the beginning. So that actually is allowing the process to work even though it doesn't always feel good in the moment.

Nick Neves 17:43

Yeah, and I think at the time, I don't even know the job, and now was a job. So I was really just searching for kind of those entry level accounting job. Like, maybe I'll have to take a pay cut, I really don't want to, there's other kinds of entry level accounting jobs that a lot of people were frequently recommending accounts payable, accounts receivable, and just stuff like that. And I was like, I would be willing to kind of grind it out and do those jobs, but it's part of my life profile, if you will, was that I wanted to be making the same amount of money or more, which is kind of what you're gonna put in the effort to go through this whole career change process– you want to be able to have that kind of same salary. So especially in Boston, where things are crazy. But yeah, I didn't even know that was a job. Through my conversations with people, I found out that, hey, this could be a good fit to kind of make that transition. So again, like talking to people and networking, even though it can be uncomfortable at times, people were way friendlier than I was expecting, even just random people on LinkedIn. I was stalking so many people on LinkedIn, sending so many messages. And a lot of people who did respond were super helpful, you know, I'd never met them before, we went and jumped on the phone. And being able to do all that while working remotely was definitely helpful. But definitely recommend reaching out to people as much as you can, if you're going through the process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:57

What did you find was very effective for you personally, which might not be effective for everybody? But in your situation, what did you find was really effective as you were reaching out to people and having those conversations, particularly in the conversations themselves? What advice would you give people that worked well for you?

Nick Neves 19:18

Yeah, I would say at first it's especially when you're finding companies where there are open jobs that you want to apply to, you're like, you're very excited to try and get your foot in the door and apply those right away, right? And I did a bad job of this at first where I was reaching out to people saying like, "Hey, I saw there was an open job here and I just would love to kind of learn more about it." That just reeks of like, hey, like, get this job for me. Right? But when I was reaching out to people, you know, treat it more as like, I want to learn about your experience and really just have a conversation that people are more willing to open up and talk about than just help a random person who's trying to use them or wants to just get a job. I think eventually the conversation ultimately kind of lives that way, which is nice, but it shouldn't start that way. Especially in the beginning when I really was just doing informational interviews just to learn about different jobs. You kind of build your network as you go anyway. So you can always go back to those people. If you see openings, it makes it a little easier to reach out and apply to those jobs.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:17

That's so interesting, the point that you made about if you are just pursuing a job, often that is a turnoff, where if you are genuinely interested in the other person to learn about it, then that very often leads to opportunities. The hard part about that, though, I think, for so many people is you can't fake that. Like if you get into that conversation, like everyone has BS meters that are going to go off like crazy, "This dude just wants the job. I'm done with this."

Nick Neves 20:49

Yeah, I think that you're right, that was a tough thing to kind of fake. For me, I was just enjoying the process, and really just enjoyed talking to people, and everyone had a different perspective on things. And I always learn something from every conversation that I had. So for me, I was excited to talk to these people and great if I could steer it in the direction I want to go in, all the better. But I think at the very least you still learn some things that you can pick up along the way. So it's kind of, that was able to help me kind of get in that mindset.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:17

Very cool. Okay, so let me ask you this. If you had to go back and make this change, again, is there anything that you would do differently in the process for yourself?

Nick Neves 21:30

Oh, that's a good question. I'm not totally sure. Maybe at the time when I was kind of looking for different roles, different opportunities, like maybe I left some different jobs or roles that are on the table, that could have been a really good fit, I kind of you know, I wanted to be kind of laser focused on one role. And that's just me personally. So I was like, okay, accounting looks good, it may not be perfect, but I think it matches a lot of the skill sets and strengths that I have. It matches my life profile, like I just checked all the boxes, like, I'm just gonna go with it and look for this job. Like some people, maybe you can look at multiple different roles or job fields at once. So maybe I left something that was a really good fit, and maybe I just didn't see it. But I remember having this conversation with my coach, too, at the time where I was worried about missing something. And eventually, you just got to move forward with something, right? You can't just have paralysis by analysis, which is definitely something that I suffer from at times. So I had to realize that and that's another opportunity where my coach helped me out, you know, maybe that's a regret. But also, I won't get too bogged down by that stuff. Because that could really stonewall your efforts to move forward.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:39

What do you feel like are, now that we're on the other end of this, and you have a different perspective, because a year ago at this time, we had talked about you were in probably a far less healthy place mentally because the role and what was expected of you was such a not great fit. Such an opposite of alignment in some very specific ways. But now that you are in a better fit, what would you describe as the differences for people?

Nick Neves 23:12

The biggest difference, take this job really matches what I'm looking for in a working environment. I don't want to be inundated with meetings all day and having to be on all the time socially. Like I said, I'm more of an introverted person. So for me kind of being heads down in your work. Doing kind of all the behind-the-scenes work is really what I preferred. So that's a big change. And the things that I felt like I was good at just wasn't being recognized at my own job. Like I said, I was doing some process improvements, and things like that, just to kind of boost efficiency and all that. And there was, like, an operational side of the job. But then it was a client facing side of the job. And I really gravitated towards the operational side and felt like I did a good job of improving that part of the job and all that but that wasn't being recognized as vital to the job or bringing success to it. So…

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:00

Well, it sounds like the emphasis was on the client facing side of the... that's really what that organization or that set of people needed in one way or another.

Nick Neves 24:08

Exactly. And now I'm able to, to kind of focus on those strengths with my new job. I didn't know all this stuff at the time, but definitely taking the strengths tests and all that stuff really helped me because I think you really know what you're good at, and what you don't like and all that, but taking the strengths test through you guys really helped me put everything into perspective and put it into words. And one thing that I really enjoyed about the process was you take the strengths test, and then you go through and kind of highlight things that stand out to you. So that's really what helped me hone in on accounting in the first place is highlighting some of the words like reliability, routine, all these different things that stood out to me, like, I enjoy that aspect of the job and I feel like I'm good at it. That was very helpful. Because again, that's also kind of a daunting thing too. It's like okay, now I have this strength test, but it's like not spitting out a job for me, right? I gotta go ahead and kind of match that to what to look for. So that process was super helpful too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:59

You know what's really interesting, though, is a year later, you can now easily articulate what it is that you need. And I think that's such a cool thing because you're going to be able to continue to build on that for the rest of your life, where, you know, I asked you, and just off the cuff, at the beginning of this, you're like, "Well, you know, here's what I wasn't getting. Here's now what I need. I needed this routine, I am more of an introvert and I need ABCD and E", and you can just rattle that off now. And I think that that is a testament, and that doesn't just happen through the process. Yes, yes, we have that built into our particular process for career change. However, it takes a lot of work from you, and understanding about yourself to be able to get to the point where now a year later, it's just like, "Oh yeah, obviously, here's what I need– boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." So that's super cool because I know what goes into that. But I think the power there that you made the point of is, you first have to be able to do that and be able to recognize it in a way that you can articulate it to other people or the outside world. Otherwise, the opportunities that come much later on just simply don't happen. If you don't get to step one, you don't get to step seven.

Nick Neves 26:07

Yeah, for sure. It wasn't, like you said, it wasn't an overnight thing. It definitely took some practice on my part, some kind of discipline to put in the time and work to figure all this stuff out, you know, be able to articulate it the way where I can now. And again, my coach was super helpful going through almost like roleplay, if you will, where you can kind of talk through it. I was so bad at it at first, but put it into practice with his help, and with the structured strengths tests and profiles and modules that you guys have, it was just helpful to kind of help me frame it for myself, too. So I would say, it was a combination of everything really, that was able to get me to where I'm at.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:45

Well, I am so glad to hear it. And before we finish up here, is there any other parting words of either wisdom or advice that you'd like to share with someone who is finding themselves back in that situation that you were in a year ago? Or like, "Okay, clearly, I need to make a change. Clearly, this is not a great fit. But what the heck do I do about it from here?" What would you tell that person who's in that place right now?

Nick Neves 27:12

Yeah, I would say thinking back to about a year ago when I was very unhappy in my job and everything, you know, you have to make a change, but you're not really sure what direction to move in. And maybe you do have a sense of what direction you want to move in, but it's just not really sure how to get there. For me, like I said, I really liked the structure of everything. So that was super helpful. But it's not so structured where it's like, someone likes to kind of do things at their own pace and all that. I think it's very flexible. And I know you guys are good at working with people's different styles and customizing things the way people work. So that's great. So that was a big thing for me. And even if I think this program would be really helpful for someone who's looking to make even more of a drastic change. Like if you're looking to make some, if you're looking to move to a very niche job that it's difficult to kind of get into that role because I know talking with some of the other people in the program, they were looking for, like, very niche specific jobs in certain industries. That's one coach would be super helpful. And it was even helpful for me who was still in the corporate world kind of making a pivot, but nothing, like, super drastic. So I would say no matter what boat you're in, really, I think having the help and guidance is helpful, right? Having the community to fall back on bounce ideas off of people. All that is just, it was all very helpful in the end. So I would say those are the kind of the big takeaways for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:37

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:31

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:37

If there's one thing that I've seen in the last 10 years or so is that our readers, listeners, clients love the idea of strengths. Love the idea that there's a unique value that we can offer to the world in the form of our strengths. But here's the funny thing, when it comes down to identifying and then using our strengths, well, that's where it gets much more complicated. That's where we find there are really, really large mental barriers standing in the way of you and what we call signature strengths.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:16

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.