274: I Want to Create a Life for Myself Not Just a Job

Kelly 00:03
They really didn't have a lot of, you know, processes in place. And it was very, you know, just kind of shoot from the hip. I mean, here's we're continuing, they didn't have anything really defined, it was very difficult to do business. I didn't even have basic resources that I needed to do my job. We were constantly, you know, having management changes, and people are constantly leaving a lot of turnover. And that's completely normal for organization.

Introduction 00:30
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:54
This is Scott Anthony Barlow, and you are listening to Happen To Your Career. This is the show that helps you figure out what work fits you by exploring other stories, we get to bring on all kinds of experts like Mark Sieverkropp, who helps people stop waiting for permission, and allows them to move forward and take action. And other people that have pretty amazing stories like Ace Chapman, who buys and sells businesses so he can live the lifestyle that he wants to. But all of these people, they're just like you, but they've already gone from where they are to what they really want to be doing. Today's guest, it's Kelly.

Kelly 01:30
I've actually only been in the role for about 9 days now. Still very, very new but I do have a very strong sense of what I will be doing. And I've already actually, you know, kind of hit the ground running, you know, with some of my responsibilities. But I am a leadership recruiter at Indeed down in our Austin headquarters office. And so I'm essentially responsible for helping to source and bring on executive leadership internally for the organization.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:02
We really get deep into the whole professional development piece and it's not a negative, a selfish or a bad thing. But instead, to really make it a great thing in your life, you'll have to learn how to stand firm in your own growth process, so that you can get the results that you're seeking, we'll show you what we mean. And then learn what feel moments are, and how having more of them can lead to more life fulfillment along the way. And we talk about how to analyze your past jobs, your past positions to determine what you like and what you don't like, so that you can start crafting your new career path, and what specifically to look for, that you might not already know. Take a listen for that, it's subtle. And the funny thing about this whole career thing and thinking about the future is sometimes your vision for the future can be fuzzy based on a skewed sense of success. And that's absolutely what was going on, reevaluating how you define success can lead to some pretty huge breakthroughs.

Kelly 03:02
I'll really start you know, after graduating from college, this was back in 2010, I went to American University in Washington DC. And really, like most college graduates, had no idea what I wanted to do when I graduated from college. But my father was a successful sales guy. And I kind of displayed a lot of, I think the attributes, you know, to be successful in sales, I, you know, was a, you know, college soccer player, I had gone through some military training. I was just, you know, very much I think in tune with like the type of person I am very A type personality, I love working with people, everything like that. So I was actually recruited out of college at a job fair for W.W Grainger, if you're familiar with that, industrial supply space, and they were having a new, you know, pilot program for new college graduates that they were running to get people out in field sales. So I was an outside sales rep for them, really only lasted three months, it was not a successful program, didn't care for it, but definitely learned a lot that was kind of my first step in recognizing what I didn't want in my career, which a was outside sales, I didn't enjoy being in a vehicle, driving around to different prospects, you know, throughout the day. I knew I wanted to kind of be in an office and I just felt like I was wasting a lot of time in that regard. So I left that job as many other people they actually close the program down. And I took a couple of months and then I went into technical recruiting. And I started to work for a small boutique, IT staffing, consulting firm in the DC area and started doing some you know, technical recruiting for them, kind of learning what recruiting was all about. I thought it was kind of a good next step and then I moved into more of an account manager role with them. So that was my first kind of my entry back into sales in terms of acquiring clients to help staff roles for and I worked there for a number of years, moved up in the company was very successful. It was small enough where I had great mentorship of just learning the ropes and having that very small, I wouldn't say startup, but small company, you know, experience. So I learned a lot through that. And then I kind of outgrew that role. There wasn't any other, you know, place for me to move up in that company. So during my time at the company, we had adopted LinkedIn, as use of, you know, recruiter tools. And I fell in love with LinkedIn, it changed the way I did business, it changed the way I recruited. So I called LinkedIn up and I said, or I think I sent emails via LinkedIn. I said...

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:31
That seems appropriate, doesn't it?

Kelly 05:34
It does, yeah, crazy, like strategic about how I did everything. But I was just, I was very passionate about the product. And I think that's kind of where my mind was. And I was like, I would love to share, you know, my experience working, you know, with LinkedIn and help other small businesses and clients do the same. So we ended call up, got the interview, got the job, ended up moving up to New York, for a sales role in which I work with small to medium sized businesses, and help them to build out their branding, utilize the network on a lot of back end solutions. So it was more of an account manager role there for three years. And this is kind of when everything came to head. That is... that propelled me to where I am now is, you know, that role was very, very fulfilling, for me, I think, and it was very difficult to be honest, to get into a role like that, because I was moving from a very unstructured, small organization into, you know, I know, LinkedIn was still very startup-y, but was a much broader, more well defined and structured place. And I think I had trouble adjusting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:35
People understand what that's like, because we get a lot of questions about the differences between, well, those, I would say those are almost on two different ends of a spectrum in some ways. So what was one, like compared to the other?

Kelly 06:50
Yeah, I think, you know, the biggest glaring difference was the first organization that I worked for, and I don't want to make this sound like the negative connotation of the company, but it just wasn't a very professional environment. What I mean, by that is, you know, they really didn't have a lot of, you know, processes in place. And it was very, you know, just kind of shoot from the hip. I mean, here's we're continuing, they didn't have anything really defined, it was very difficult to do business, I didn't even have basic resources that I needed to do my job. We were constantly, you know, having management changes, and people were constantly leaving a lot of turnover. And that's completely normal for organization. Going to LinkedIn, it was much more sophisticated. Obviously, it was a much more reputable company, which helped a lot, you know, it always doesn't sales when people you call them up, and they actually know who you are.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:40
I think that I know you. I've heard of you. You're amazing! Yeah.

Kelly 07:46
And there's positives and negatives that too, you know, I got a lot of, you know, clients who didn't have positive experiences LinkedIn. But in that event, you know, then going into that environment and I think, you know, the people and the quality of people in an organization LinkedIn was top tier, I mean, I worked with some of the smartest, most talented, diverse, just fun and good human beings, like in that organization, I think, then, you know, anywhere else in my life that I met, and, you know, going in there, and having a very structured sales organization, it was difficult for me to adapt, because I never, you know, been in that before. And it really, in all honesty, my first year was a huge growing year for me, you know, I didn't do well in terms of meeting quotas, and I struggled a lot. And then, you know, basically, second year came around, I got a new manager, and I sat down with her, and I said, we really need to roadmap this out to make sure that I'm successful this year. Now, I kind of have the hang of things. So that, you know, adjustment in transition period was challenging, but I worked through that. And I think, you know, for anybody who goes through that, I think you need to just give yourself time and be patient and utilize resources, you know, in order to, you know, let yourself go through that process, because I don't think there's a magic answer for that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:56
I wish there was a magic answer for that. It would be an awful lot easier. But I think that there's a lot of growth that can come through that type of thing, too. And that would be... if you want to call that a silver lining. For some people, they thrive in those types of situations. Other people don't think either way is good nor bad, necessarily. But I completely understand what you mean. So what happened from there, then?

Kelly 09:19
Yeah, so going into my second sales here, which starts in January, this was 2015, I did get a new manager. And things were kind of shifting in the organization. We were doing some organizational changes in terms of how sales people were working with the customer success people. So I actually had a gentleman who I worked with, who helped me with a lot of the things that I you know, didn't necessarily want to spend the time doing with my clients and I just wanted to be able to work with my clients and he did a lot of the, you know, other stuff. And so I went through that and I was so determined that year to be successful, and I set benchmarks for myself and goals, and I just kind of got this, I don't know how do you explain it, but it was this newfound confidence. And I think, you know, a lot of it was because I made sure I let my manager know exactly what I want to accomplish. And I really utilized her, I utilized other people in the organization, and I just kind of like sprung for it and said, you know, I'm gonna do the very best I can do. And, you know, by, you know, the second quarter, third quarter, fourth quarter, you know, I was the top salesperson in that office, I was winning awards, never thought I would win, I was, you know, selling products and deals that I never thought I would close. And it was like, the most successful year of my career I made, you know, more money than I ever thought I could make. I mean, just all the way across the board. It was like successful just working with my clients and finding new ways. And so, you know, I kind of came out of the end of that year, you know, very, very satisfied, but I will be honest with you, I think that, that success got, like, got to my head, and it almost became like my identity, like I almost turned into a workaholic that year because I wanted so badly to be successful in that role that it consumed me. And I realized by the end of that December, that although I had gotten where I wanted to go wise and within the company, and you know, financially, that was kind of when I had this aha moment when everything was gonna change for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:18
What did you... it sounds like, when you have that aha moment, first of all, I'm super curious about what that aha moment is. But even before we get to that, what was causing you to want all of those things in terms of how you were measuring success for that particular year for yourself? Looking back, what do you think that was?

Kelly 11:42
Yeah, that's a great question, Scott. And to be completely frank with you, I think my idea of success was completely skewed. And I think that this idea of what I always thought success should look like, really, down deep wasn't what was making me happy, I think I was looking a lot of external things like the financials and the accolades and the recognition. And, you know, kind of, I think, like what society places as like an overly successful person in business, as opposed to internally, I could not feel that like, couldn't have felt less successful in my own mind, despite all success that I had.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:16
Interesting. So then, what was that aha moment then, describe that for me? And what did you feel like was really missing out of that societal definition of success?

Kelly 12:27
Yeah. So I'll never forget it was late in December, it was after I had hit my annual quota at LinkedIn, I'll never forget coming back to my apartment, I was standing in my bedroom in my apartment in New York, it was the end of the year. And it was like, kind of like, "Okay, it's all over now. I like it." And then I remember receiving, like my final paycheck from LinkedIn. And, you know, I can't even tell you night and day, like the amount of money I was previously making to that, you know, that's kind of a big step in your career, when you kind of see the numbers affect it. And you know, at that time, I think, you know, I wanted to be very financially sound. So the money was very big for me. And I remember looking at that paycheck, and I remember, I said to myself out loud, like, "Is this it? Is that all there is?" And that was this moment where like, I knew that something wasn't right. And that was like, I should be happy, I should be fulfilled. But what I realized was that I was really going for the end result. And I didn't enjoy the process at all. And when I say don't enjoy the process, like yesterday, enjoy working with my clients. Yes, I did. But you know, really, I was all driven by what that end result was. And I was waiting for the end of the year. And that's what drove me, it was so hard. It's like, I couldn't wait to just get to the end of the year for it all to be over. As opposed to just enjoying the day to day and learning and growing and, you know, actually, like embracing the role, and it sounds very, you know, weird, and it's not to say I didn't, you know, enjoy the role but I just... I focused on the wrong things. And that's really when it like came to me, and I said, like, if this is all there is and I, you know, did this, this and this and said, something's missing, like I need to figure this out. This shouldn't be right, I should be feeling happy and joyous and kind of looking back on my achievements and, you know, feeling fulfilled. And that was not the case.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:09
So that is super interesting in breaking apart some of the pieces of what creates that fulfillment and the "enjoying the journey" because I think everybody's heard that saying in some fashion or another, and most of us, I found don't necessarily fully understand what it means. And to be totally completely fair, it's only in the last five years that I have really even started to feel comfortable in joining the journey, if you will. So, from your perspective, then what do you think that, that looks like for you to enjoy the journey? Either, you know, as you started to realize that and as you started to become aware of that, and then going forward, what do you anticipate that, that will be like? And help define that a little bit for us from your perspective, too, because it's hard to wrap your head around, I think.

Kelly 15:07
It is. It's a very difficult, you know, process. And I think especially in this day and age, everything is very results and performance boring, especially, you know, in a sales role, which is why I think I kind of got so lost. But, you know, as I've taken a step back, you know, from that and really, you know, evaluated everything in my life, I think, you know, one of the things I have realized is we do, we spend so much time in process. Most of life is very little of it, is the actual end result. So if you're not enjoying the process, like, you know, you're probably not going to be overly fulfilled, and you're going to struggle a lot. And that's what I realized. So what I recognized was moving forward, not just in a job, but really in every area of my life. Because I do this in other areas in relationships, and, you know, other tasks and, you know, goals that I have for myself, I realized, you know, take a step back, and like, what do you enjoy doing? And that's really what I extrapolated everything in terms of a job or, you know, where do I love to spend my time? Like, what do I start thinking about, you know, on a, you know, when I start daydreaming and, you know, if I started to kind of ask those questions, you know, what would I do if I didn't have to work another day in my life, and you start asking the questions that really hone in on purpose and fulfillment and the natural things that come to you, as opposed to, you know, kind of trying to force yourself and that's what I was doing. I was almost like, in a role that wasn't very natural to me, I was doing a lot of tasks and activities that, you know, just didn't come naturally to me. And that's where I think the burnout came out, the crash and burn that I eventually had in the next quarter. And, you know, it's because I was exhausted and when you, you know, force yourself it's like fitting a square peg into a round hole. I mean, you can't maintain that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:51
Yeah, yeah. So what were some of those things for you that were the small pieces that you mentioned, that you really did love that you started paying attention to? And realizing, hey, this is where I need to spend more of my time versus forcing myself into this slot, if you will.

Kelly 17:08
Right. Yeah, I think one of the key things for me is, I realized in that sales role at LinkedIn, that I loved working with people, and I will say I am naturally I'm an INFJ, if that means anything to anybody, I'm naturally very introverted, but when like I can turn it on, but it's got to be for small bouts of time. So I'm much more of a sprinter than a marathoner. So I can, you know, talk to somebody, have a great deep conversation, and then I need to kind of sit back and reflect on it. In a sales role at LinkedIn, I am constantly pounding phones all day long, you know, constantly giving client presentations, I realized that that was not the right type of role for me. So moving forward, what I discovered was, I would love to still be in a role where I am, you know, talking with people and meeting with people. And it's very people focus as opposed to product focused where, you know, I'm sitting there trying to solve business problems, I want to solve people problems. And that's kind of where, and that may sound a little bit funny, but that's kind of where the difference between sales and recruiting came in why I think I went back to recruiting because I was talking to people about real life things, as opposed to putting together proposals for, you know, for a product or a service that I was trying to sell.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:20
That's really interesting, particularly because of that people component. And when it comes to what creates meaningful work for each of us, there really, honestly, is a little bit different definition because we all want to help people in some way. But there can be completely different ways that you versus I versus the next person perceive that we are helping people. And it sounds like for you, it has to be much more direct than maybe the next person.

Kelly 18:54
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think also, you know, this element within me that I've got to have deep conversation, I was made up of 200 to 250 clients at LinkedIn. And I wasn't able to get really deep with them, if you can imagine because of that. So I enjoyed having deeper conversations with clients. And I realized that because I did develop a few. And that's something that I'm looking forward to having more in a recruitment role, because you're really diving into that person's life and their career, you know, on an individual basis. I'm not trying to manage all the accounts.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:28
Absolutely. I can completely empathize, sympathize, I suppose, with that because that's one of the reasons why I love having these types of conversations. I have to in my life, have ongoing, deeper, meaningful conversations. I'm not the person who's incredibly excited about small talk, honestly, I get bored really quickly. That may seem selfish to some people, but that's part of what's the way that I'm wired and the way that I think. And so I can absolutely identify with that. Now, you had this realization and you know, you went to that, you got that paycheck moment, like we're talking about process versus end result, there was a whole year of process and one paycheck moment. And so after you had that, you had this aha moment, and started started thinking about this in a little bit different way felt like something was missing. At what point did you start to take action on that? And how did that look for you?

Kelly 20:30
Yeah, I... pardon me, my phone's ringing here in the background. Well, I honestly could feel, you know, that this moment, you know, in all honesty, about, you know, half the year and even before I had this aha moment, I could kind of feel something coming on, because I knew in my heart that like, I just couldn't wait to get to the end of the year. But, you know, the first quarter went by, and it was about, probably, in April. So about four months later, I was sitting, I kind of had another moment... and I'm a pretty, I don't say, pretty rash person, but when I make up my mind to do something, I really do it. And I, you know, I don't play around with it. So I struggled, you know, in the first quarter of my results after, you know, kind of coming, staying on top, all the 2015, 2016 that first quarter was probably the worst quarter of my career, completely crashed, I was over it, I was burned out, couldn't do it. And I remember sitting in a client meeting in Boston, this was in like, late April, early May. And I remember just like looking out the window and I was like, "I'm done." Like, I didn't even care. And I said, "This isn't fair to my clients. This is apparent to me, like I should be, you know, really interested in, you know, solving problems for them." And I was just over it to be quite honest with you. And I just had this moment, I said, like, I can't, I was pretty dramatic. And I was like, I can't do this another day. And at that time, I was actually working with a performance coach, and you know, was telling him everything was going on. And this was a Thursday, and I flew back to New York from Boston on Thursday night, and I put some time on my managers calendar. And by noon that day, I told her, I was putting in my resignation, I said, "I'm done. I don't know where I'm going from here. You know, I don't really care. But I know that this isn't the place. And this isn't fair to anyone. And I wanted to do by the company by myself." So, you know, here, I was about to be jobless in New York City with, you know, high rent and, you know, didn't know where I was going in my life. But I think like, that's kind of a risk that you have to take in and my saying that, you know, "Everybody should go quit their job without anything else lined up?" No, I think I really just need to take a massive breather, I knew that financially, I was able to do what I was very fortunate for that. But I knew that I think the biggest step for me was just getting out of my current situation, so I could realign myself, if that makes sense. I couldn't do it. If I continued in this role, the role was just pulling way too much energy and time for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:49
Yeah, that completely makes sense. I've been working on, I don't know, let's call it a theory for the moment. Over the last period of time, just as we've encountered and worked with so many different types of personalities, it really seems there is a particular type that, how do I say it, and I fall into this group too, so maybe that is selfishly why I'm interested in it. But where once you reach that moment, whatever it is, and maybe not even associated with burnout, but where... you almost can't force yourself to do something, once you have that realization, you almost cannot force yourself to keep going. Otherwise, the work just drastically be grades, or all of these other things that are desirable to that type person, don't happen. And I'm curious, your thoughts on that? And if that is what you've really... have you seen that for yourself in other places, too? Or was it really just that particular time or that moment?

Kelly 23:50
I think in a lot of areas of my life that's, like how it's been for me. And so, you know, I actually agree, I think with, you know, with kind of your theory, you know, in terms of that, I think everybody just handles it very differently. And I think it is very dependent on the personality of the person. And I think there's so many other elements involved, like I was a single person, I didn't have any constraints, I think if you have family, or you're married, or you have to take in children, you could say, it's a very difficult thing to do, you don't necessarily have the freedom and a luxury to be able to do that. And I, you know, really recognize that and, you know, I'm blessed that I wasn't, you know, in that situation, but for people who, you know, are in that situation, I think they have to be a little bit, you know, more careful and really consider a lot more things which could make it a little more complicated, which, as you and I both know, I think why a lot of people stay in roles that they know that they aren't right for companies or whatever in their life, you know, because people involved. So, yeah, I absolutely kind of agree with that theory. And I just, I think it's, you know, dependent upon other factors in your life as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:54
Absolutely. So, okay, you had this realization, you started... you ended up leaving the role. And now you're jobless in New York City. And fortunately you have, from all that work and burnout and everything, you had some money to be able to show for it. Wasn't necessarily what you wanted but it enabled you to be able to take that type of step, which sounds like was right for you. And what happened from there?

Kelly 25:26
Yeah, so to be completely honest with you, it was a tough... I stayed in New York for six months later, my lease didn't end until November. So I was kind of stuck there. But I did not do a single thing really job related in that next six months, you know, I think the first couple of weeks after LinkedIn, I just kind of went out, had fun, you know, I started to date a new guys. So that was a great distraction. But I, you know, coming from that crash and burned, I don't want to make it sound like, you know like, "peace I'm out" like, I'm excited about my life. Dropped the mic, you know. It was a struggle for me. I mean, there was some depression that sit in and then a lot of doubt, and I think, you know, I basically self sabotage in that role. And I walked myself out of that role, I think, because I knew that if my performance continued to decrease as it was it, I was going to be let go and I think that scared me. And I think I was basically just giving myself an out there too. But I really struggled with, and I think all of these things built up is, I had a lot of inner work to do on myself. And I had a lot of self doubt. I beat myself up constantly. I mean, the perfectionism in my life is what drove me to success. But it also, you know, drove me to crumble where I was, I think I lacked basic self love, you know, I think, like, that was a huge part, as crazy as that sounds, you know, a part of my life that I never really developed, I was always still results and my results were basically... they basically determined my self worth and my value. And I think, you know, when you're in a high performing role like that, it's easy for that to happen. So basically, after leaving LinkedIn, I felt like I was nothing. And I, you know, you start to have these thoughts, like, you know, I'm a piece of crap, and you know, anybody ever hire me again, you know, I was gonna get fired anyways, all of that work in 2015, it was just a, you know, a fluke, I kind of had some imposter syndrome going on there. So, you know, you really start to doubt and, you know, I knew that as long as I was in that mindset, I wasn't going anywhere fast. And as quickly as it would be to run out and get another job, I knew that these problems, were just gonna follow me and it didn't matter. So I really, you know, spent the next six months trying to work through this stuff, I was still working with my peak performance coach talking everyday to him. And to be honest with you, like I was just still struggling. I mean, I struggled hard for six months. And then after my lease was up, I ended up just saying goodbye to New York, and I said, "Listen, I'm not going to pay another year of this rent. I'm moving back home to St. Louis, I'm going to just take some time and figure things out for a couple of months" which turned out to be a year, not a couple of months.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:04
You moved back to St. Louis, which the money why sounds amazing. But your family's there too, right? If I recall.

Kelly 28:11
Here, I actually ended up coming back and living in my parents house which was interesting, but it was... I was very blessed that they let me and I think originally it was only because I was going to be here for a couple of months. It didn't make sense to go out and, you know, get an apartment. But it turned out to be a year long that I was here. And that was you know, kind of crazy. I kind of felt like, you know, I was like that 30 year old living with mom and dad still. So it was like, kind of hard for me. But I mean, you coming back to St. Louis and you know, this whole year that I took, you know, it still took a lot of time it. And to be honest, in that year that I came back to St. Louis, it wasn't until the last maybe three months that I even started looking for a job. So majority of my time was not looking for a job. It was doing personal development stuff, and really working to get over these hurdles, that I knew would do me much better in the long term, you know. And I would constantly be getting from people, you know, do you have a job yet? You know, in my mind, I'm not even looking for a job, you know, I can go out and get a job tomorrow. That's not the problem. But all the work that I was doing was gonna propel me into finding the next right job for me, you know, I was looking at it very holistically in terms of creating a life plan. And Lisa and I, that's where I think she came in and was very helpful is, you know, when you talk about getting a job, that doesn't sound, you know, that fulfilling alone, but what about creating a life, right?That sounds a lot more compelling to people. So I needed to find a compelling enough reason to kind of create this life for myself, like that sounded fun to me and all of the different elements with, you know, location, relationship, the things I'd be doing on a daily basis, my personal goals, so it was really a much broader plan, then, you know, going on job boards and you know, selecting jobs on there and things like that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:53
Yeah, in for a little bit of background context. You found us I think, for The Muse, if I were recall and then ended up joining our career change bootcamp program. And that's where you got to work with Lisa, who is one of the coaches on our team who back in Episode 147, you can go back and listen to Lisa's story as well. So then you started working with Lisa on this creating the life plan and ultimately creating the life that you were interested in. Now, it occurs to me that when you're getting all those questions about, "Hey, do you have your job yet? Do you have your next job?" Yeah, like, all the things that people ask, I'm curious what that was like. But also, it is seems to be interesting that thinking about it in terms of holistically and creating the life plan, it is abnormal enough that it seems like a lot of people don't understand. So I'm curious what that was like. Because when people are going through this, they often get similar questions, no matter where.

Kelly 29:53
Yeah. And I think there's a lot of pressure too, you know, your pressure from parents and family and people in your life who... they have good intentions, you know, they want us to do well. And they're, I think in the mindset, some of them I think are more old fashioned, it's all about, you know, making sure you're secure and you have a job. But for me, I mean, I was very lucky, I didn't actually get a lot of that, I got that from you know, a few people. And I think, you know, my parents were obviously, you know, concerned they wanted me to, you know, have employment and things like that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:23
I'm just curious what that was like, as you were interacting with different people during that time? And how you worked through that and how you handled that because of those pressures?

Kelly 31:34
Yeah, yeah, that's right. So you know, and having those people come to me, I really stood firm, I knew that what I was doing was the right path. And I didn't let that you know, interfere with what I was doing. I said, you know, what, I'm actually not looking for a job right now. I'm really doing a lot of personal development stuff. And then like, well, like, you know, what's personal development, right? That's a whole another conversation and doing inner work. Some people don't even know what that means. But I mean, essentially, what I was doing was, I was looking myself in the mirror, and I was really taking apart all of the elements of myself that, you know, that I didn't particularly like, and I was looking to improve them and change them, and restructuring, it's almost I like to, I kind of got into this whole element of Neuro Linguistic Programming to another thing, and I'm a huge Tony Robbins fan, Jim Rome fan. And when I was working with this previous coach, he taught me a lot about it. But I was basically trying to go in and rewire my operating system, so my brain and tried to restructure, you know, how I was thinking about everything and asking myself different questions. And, you know, I think it's the day to day, a lot of it is a very subconscious level. And that's, you know, something that most people, you know, don't necessarily pay attention to. So I was having a whole different level of awareness of like, no wonder why I'm walking around miserable and I think I'm no good. It's because I'm, you know, the thoughts that are running through my mind are so negative and I'm telling myself, I can't do anything, you know, what if I asked myself better questions and this and that, and that's something that Lisa and I worked towards. So to kind of get back to your question, I really didn't have too tough of a time I, you know, to be honest, kind of, I don't say shut people out of my life. But this was definitely a time for me to focus on myself. And being back in St. Louis, I didn't really, you know, have good connections here anymore, because I've been gone for so long. So I didn't really have to work on that too much. It was a good time of kind of solitude and doing my own thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:29
After you started working with Lisa, then what started making a difference for you as you were interacting with her through CCB? What was that like? And how did you start to move forward from there?

Kelly 33:46
Yeah, Lisa was really instrumental in helping me slow down the process, because I'm very impatient.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:54
I'd never guessed.

Kelly 33:57
You know, you have this type and you want everything and you want it now. And, you know, really, I was still I think, you know, although I was still going through personal development, I think that the back of the mind, I was still, like, in my mind, like, hoping for a miracle that like this thing that I was supposed, I really struggle with this whole idea of purpose. And this thing that I was supposed to do with my life was like this job in this calling, just as crazy as the dog, I just thought it was gonna, like, drop down from the sky one day, it was just going to come to me. And I was very wrong about that. It doesn't work like that. But Lisa, you know, helped me kind of take a step back and reframe everything, in terms of the day to day and as we go back to like the process, more living like in that moment. And really just being aware and you know, I was working through a lot of the... like the strengthsfinder test that you guys provided and a lot of the things in the first couple of modules, with Happen To Your Career, and those things were really helpful because it really let me break things down into pieces and recognize like, oh, I didn't realize I was like that. And I really started to discover things about myself that I really didn't know about before because I'd never taken the time to be aware and to like discover. And I think I always had this, as I talked about, you know, in college kind of propelling into a sales career, I think I always felt like I was supposed to be something, you know, I was supposed to be in sales or I was supposed to be this type of person because everybody thought of me as this. And that's very difficult. And I think a lot of people and hopefully, some of the listeners can relate to that is, you know, you have this idea of who your parents think you should be, or the people in your world should be, and they have expectations for you, and the type of life that you're supposed to live. And I realized, like, those rules that I had for myself, like, I could break those rules, it didn't have to be like that. I could be, you know, I could recreate myself, and I didn't have to stick to what other people wanted. And that's not to say that they didn't have good intentions for me, but I kind of like started to go in and say like, I do have a very soft sensitive side, you know, and I am a very loving, empathetic person. And those are things that I never allowed to come out in, you know, a very fast paced, rigorous hardcore sales career that I've had. So please, help me kind of go back and recognize those things. And I think one of the most key things that, and I think this was duly said and we kind of talked about this is, instead of thinking, I think all the time, right, we tend to think we think about this, we think about that. Instead of thinking, I would take time and I would feel, I would sit there on a daily basis. And whatever, like happened, whenever I'd be exploring something, or just kind of having a conversation with somebody, I didn't like think about what they were saying, I was really focusing on like, how does that make me feel? Does that strike a chord? You know, do I get goosebumps, and that I think is the key for really understanding where you're supposed to be, what you love. And if you could have more of those feel moments throughout the day, I think it will make your life a lot more fulfilling all the way about it. I think those are signals that you can't ignore, but you have to take time to feel instead of think your way to success, if that makes sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:59
That completely makes sense. It's also a skill, I would say, that takes a bit of practice. Honestly, it took me years of practice to really start, well, actually to stop paying attention to what was in my head, and start paying attention to what was in my heart or gut or however you want to look at it those feelings. And it is, I wish I could say that for anybody, we could just flip the switch. But really much like anything else, it takes a ton of practice and work to be able to really do that very, very well. Now, I think it's worth it. Most of the people that I have talked to, that have gone through and taken the time to begin paying attention to that, almost all of them have said, "Oh, yeah, it's totally worth it." Much like anything else that is incredibly difficult in life. But until you can start to untangle that the thinking versus the feeling, it really makes it difficult to be able to untangle some of the other pieces that you mentioned too, like, my parents perceptions of me versus how I want to perceive myself or how I want to show up in the world. So that's super interesting. And I love the way that you put that in terms of the thinking versus feeling. Very cool.

Kelly 38:20
Absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:22
Okay. This, at some point, turned into the role that now you've been in for nine days. How did you get from there to where we just described? Paying attention to what you wanted and how you were feeling about different things and beginning to break that down in a way to where you could identify what it was that you actually wanted. And then with some measure of confidence, go into the next role saying, "Hey, this is really truly what I actually want, not just a repeat of what I had prior."

Kelly 38:54
Right. Exactly. Yeah, in still, at this point, Scott, I just want to make note that I had no idea when I started, when I mentioned starting to reach out to people, this was like the last three months of my transition, I still had no idea what I wanted to do. So I just want to make that very clear. Because I think, you know, people tend to think that they need to have it all figured out in terms of the type of company and you know, everything. I had all these different puzzle pieces and I was having trouble connecting them. That was my biggest frustration at this point in the process. And so what I did was, I kind of took what I knew and you know, I looked back at my entire career, and really got a piece of paper and put you know, what I loved and I had to have, what I liked, and then what I couldn't tolerate, and I really broke this down for myself. And so one of the things that I didn't know was that I wanted to be part of a people centric and values driven organization. And I had worked at one, it was LinkedIn. LinkedIn was very much like that. I loved working within like the tech company scene for that reason. They are all very you know, progressive in that way. So that was one of the things. So I started to target companies that were similar to LinkedIn, in terms of the area that I was going after. I was still looking at a few business development roles. I think just for the heck of it, to be honest, I don't think I really would have taken one. But I started to go back and said, "Okay. Where can I go, like, work with people." I love to learn about people, like I could sit there and, you know, do research on people, I go on Wikipedia to look it. And I started to, like, have this people obsession and...

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:31
I love it.

Kelly 40:32
It sounds kind of weird.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:33
No, it's fantastic.

Kelly 40:36
Like, if I could just interview people all day, I think I would do that. But I started to just think about that. And I kind of went back to this whole like, recruiting element because of that reason and I thought my sales skills would be well versed in that as well. Because you know, recruitment, especially at an executive level is, you know, highly sales driven. I mean, you've got to sell that company and sell that person hard. So what I did, essentially was I reached out to a bunch of companies, one of them was, Indeed, I actually did this through LinkedIn. And I reached out to a few members of the talent attraction organization, which is their entire recruitment organization. And I said, "Hey, I would love to have an open conversation with you. I never looked at a specific role and I never really go about my searches like that. Anyway, I like to talk to people, I like to have open conversation. Hear about what's going on in the organization." And I actually got a reply within, I think 30 minutes from a girl over there. And she said, "Hey, you know, will you pass me your resume? I love your background, you know, what would you be looking for?" And I was honest, and said, "Listen, I really I don't know. But I would love to have a conversation with you guys." And so that kind of started the process from there. And to be honest, this position that I'm... oh, go ahead.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:41
No, I'm just gonna pause because that is a thing that I think a lot of people are afraid of, based on what you said earlier, like, I have to have it all figured out, I have to have all my ducks in a row, I have to have everything identified before I go out and begin looking. And the reality is, you're probably never gonna make a change, at least not a change that you want to if you pursue it that way. So what you said, I think is very, very key. And I just wanted to call that out separately where you went and did what a lot of people are afraid of. Anyway, so first of all, awesome, and way to have courage in that particularly sometimes scary situation for people. And you said, "Hey, I actually don't know what I'm looking for. But I'd love to have a conversation." So what happened from there, then?

Kelly 42:26
Yeah, and I will also say too, just on that note, I think it's, you know, important to know that this whole idea of having to have everything kind of figured out, I think, yeah, it's such a, is a farce. And that's like, where I was really struggling in the process. And I don't know how I overcome, I think I changed my entire thought process to this. And also one of the other things like in this process, as I was reaching out to people, and having these conversations is, I really worked on being vulnerable with them. And that might sound crazy, especially in the job process. But what I noticed is, you know, when I went into... I interviewed a lot here in St. Louis, I learned these interviews, and I was very open about my story. I mean, remember that I had a year and a half gap on my resume, right? I mean, that's scary, who's gonna hire someone with a year and a half gap, they haven't been working. And what I did was, I used that story to really craft a better story, to my advantage. And to show people this is much, much bigger than about a job, you know, I've done the work to come into an organization. So I think that's also key is, you know, if you have, if you do take this time and actually do that, like, don't be afraid to use that story to your advantage, and be vulnerable people. Because what I learned was when I went into these interviews, I felt like I came out. And as weird as this sounds, and I told Lisa this, that the people that I was interviewing with got more out of that process than I did, because I think when I shared my story, they kind of something went inside their head, and they said, "Man, I can totally relate to that. I know I'm, you know, 60 years old, and I never ever switched them, still in the same role. But man, I can totally agree." And I think when you get that level of kinship with somebody, I think that's what it's all about. And that in the process for me was so fulfilling. And I think that was probably like the turning point is just being vulnerable saying, "It's okay. You don't have to have it all figured out. Because who does?" And I think a lot of us and everybody else in the world has it figured out except for me, right? And that's what I constantly thought about in this process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:18
Yeah, we all have a tendency to have those shields up and ever, just like you said, everybody else thinks that everybody else has it figured out. But in reality, it's so relatable when somebody finally says that they don't, and shares that in a way that other people can identify with. And ultimately, it sounds like for you, it absolutely brought those... created those closer relationships and what would have been through those interviews.

Kelly 44:42
Right. I actually went into these interviews with and this is gonna, this is the psychology part of me, almost to break down that social shield and I knew that once I got that person talking on the other end about their own story in that interview, you know, it wasn't just about me, and I think you can be very, I don't use the term narcissistic but very self focused in a job search, because it is all about you and finding that job. But when you make it about other people, and you, you know, that's really what it's all about. And I learned that about myself. So it was great. And even going into Indeed, you know, as I said, I told them I didn't know what I wanted, but I wanted to learn about talent attraction. And so I ended up going in and having a conversation with an initial person over there and kind of told them, and so basically, the roles that they had open were a bunch of different recruiter roles. And I said, okay, you know, and I stayed very open in the process, I try not to cut things off too soon. And I think some people have a propensity to do that, you know, it's not the exact role, but I think you have to remain open in the process. So I basically interviewed with four different teams of recruiters that handled recruitment within different departments. So sales recruiting, like program management recruiting, engineering recruiting, so I went through all these, it's called a batch interview. So I basically on a Skype, or a Skype call for like, two and a half hours, if you're familiar with batch interviewing. With all these different hiring managers and managers, and after that first process, I'll be honest, nothing was really, you know, like, clicking with me, it just like, it just wasn't there. And I got feedback from them saying, "Oh, you know, So and so would love to have you on their team, this and that." And so I basically was, you know, honestly I said, "What else do you guys have? You guys have to have something else over there." And so the recruiter I was working with said, "Well, we have you know, this and this and this." And then they said, "Well, we have this sexual like this leadership recruitment role open, it's a newly created role, like, would you be interested in something?" I said, "Yes. I did."

Scott Anthony Barlow 46:45
Yes, please.

Kelly 46:46
Yeah, there's something about that. And I've been working with executives at LinkedIn, I like working in a very high level, you know, with higher level within the company, a little bit more sophisticated roles, very impactful roles, I think the impact of these executives coming into an organization is like, you know, key for me not to say that people just, you know, who are not executive arm. But so anyway, the whole point, by this time, I had spoken with like eight different, it had eight different interviews with them. It was a long, grueling process. But I ended up speaking with the manager of leadership, recruitment, who's now my boss, had a call, we completely hit it off. And she literally had this role open for months, and was so swamped because she was in charge of other responsibilities that she literally did not have time to recruit for this role. So basically, you know, me coming out there and saying that I was interested in this but basically, you know, she told me it was kind of like a gift on her lap, the fact that I reached out to her about this role, which is kind of funny.

Scott Anthony Barlow 47:42
Which is, I mean, that's everything that we have a tendency to teach, like putting yourself in that type of situation, where it is the right time and place. And essentially, what you did is you ended up walking through the back door, because nobody else is competing for that. They literally did not... she did not have time to be able to interview for and I think that it's worthwhile to point out here too, that had you not done some of the work on yourself to be able to understand what it was that you specifically wanted, or at least had a good idea of what you didn't want versus what you didn't want, then you wouldn't have been able to say no to some of those other roles. That's the first thing. And honestly, behind the scenes, when we work with people, that's one of the measures of success that we use behind the scenes like our people... do they have the ability to say no to stuff because they know enough about what they want. And that then led to the weird thing. The other psychological factor out of that is when you do that, and when you do that in a way that is enduring and building the relationship. Oddly enough, it makes organizations and people in organizations want you more a lot of the time and number of different ways. And I think that your story is absolutely evidence of that. But more importantly, it led you to a role where you could then say yes, I am actually very interested in that. Let's hear more about that. So that's super cool. Meant to be a very large compliment, and illustrate that what you did is a particularly effective way to go about it too. Awesome job, by the way.

Kelly 49:21
Thank you. Yeah, it feels good. And I'm so blessed that things worked out. And I think it's a lesson for me in terms of keeping an you know, an open mind and, you know, not cutting things off because I was kind of down, I want to say down in the process, but you know, after that, you know, initial interview and when I said, oh, you know, a lot of people I think would have shut the door and I normally probably would have too, but you know, decided to ask that bigger question like, what else do you guys have? Because I knew that I loved the organization and that's kind of where, you know, it all started, like starting off point was.

Scott Anthony Barlow 49:51
That is so cool. That is absolutely amazing. So you've gone through all of this and it's been not a short journey. And I think there's so much out there about careers in a variety of different ways. It's like, you know, get your perfect dream job in 37 days, or something else along those lines, right. And for a lot of people, especially when they're focused on doing work that really fits with the life that they want to create, it doesn't happen in that way. And it doesn't... it's more of a roller coaster and more of a couple steps forward, and a couple steps back and all kinds of things in between. So after going through all of that, I am super curious, what advice would you offer to other people that are thinking about making this change? Or maybe their way back on the side where they've had that paycheck moment and realize, this can't be all their areas. What advice would you give to the people in those situations?

Kelly 50:48
Right? I mean, I think again, it's like, so I want to, like, tell everybody, like, go take a year off. And like, really just, I don't know that everybody has the luxury and the capacity to do that. But no matter, you know, what it is, I think, you know, as cliche as it sounds, you know, if you have a moment like that, recognize that and I think it's sometimes takes longer for other people to actually take action after having that, you know, realization moment. But you know, recognize that and do something like, take as Tony Robbins always says, like, take massive action and really do something and take time again, I think going back to that feeling to really feel whether you're trying to decipher what it is, you know, in your career next, and be bold, be brave, I think a lot of fear and uncertainty comes in, during these times and it's so hard to overcome. And I think one thing that I, you know, I could probably have an entire conversation about that we didn't go into today was, you know, I think a lot of people having a job and you know, figuring out your life it's very serious business, right? It affects you day to day. But one of the things that really helped me get to that point was, I completely reframed and restructured the way that I thought about life, I think about it now as one big game, everything was life and death to me, especially during that year at LinkedIn, like, everything was just so pressured. Like, I put so much pressure on myself, I can't even tell you, and I'm sure a lot of these listeners can relate is, you know, make life a game like few things are really life and death. Have fun with it, you know, you go in, you have a crappy interview, laugh about it and say, "okay, like, you know, what could I've done" and just stay in learning as opposed to evaluating, if that makes sense, and continue to just learn and everything that happens to you, it's all a matter of how you look at it, and just keep moving forward in that way. So I think, you know, not being afraid to take action, if you don't know what that next action is, like, really take time and do something. And guess what, if that doesn't work, fine, do something else and do something else. But soon enough, you're going to get to that point, to getting closer to what you want to do. And I think the only thing that, you know, can ensure that nothing changes in your life is to do nothing. So even I think I was so paralyzed because I thought I was gonna continuously make the wrong move. And that's what held me back for so long. But make some type of move, even if it's the wrong one, guess what, you're going to learn from it and be that much closer to your goal. So I think that's my biggest piece of advice and don't take everything so seriously. Have fun with it, people love to have fun, and I even learned, you know, this doesn't have to be a daunting task to figure out your life in the next stage in your career, like, it can be a lot of fun, you know, going into interviews, I'm laughing with people and this and that. And I think it's what you bring to it, you know, if you bring a certain standard and level of enjoyment to this process, other people will really, you know, hop on and get on board with that as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 53:35
Well, I really appreciate that. And I know that we'll hit with a number of people out there. And thank you so much for taking the time this morning, nine days into your new role and we're... this will actually air at a different time, but we're on the... approaching the holiday break here, when we're actually recording this to you a little bit behind the scenes info. But I really appreciate you taking the time and making the time and sharing this with so many people out there. This is amazing and nicely done.

Kelly 54:04
Oh, thank you, Scott, thank you for having me on. And I'm happy to share my experiences. And I don't know if you provide contact information. But if anybody you know wants to talk to me personally about anything else, I'd be more than happy to help them in any way I can. Be very passionate about personal transformation and living a compelling life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 54:21
Do you enjoy helping other people? Or maybe people keep coming to you for advice? Or do you find yourself ending up in conversations about people's career over and over again? If you just find that you can't stop helping other people in these areas that you're enjoying and want to do more of it, plus, maybe you want to add in more freedom or flexibility or travel or other ways to help others and you really want to take control of your own life and help other people do work that they love doing by making a huge impact. Well, then guess what? If even just one of these is true, it's probably a safe bet that you would enjoy coaching full time tremendously to receive more in depth help and get our 14 day series on How To Become A Career Coach and learn whether or not career coaching is viable for you and the right thing for you, and learn from other career coaches that have built businesses full time, part time, as a side business and everything in between. Then you head on over to howtobeacareercoach.com and sign up for that series. Take a listen to what we've got in store for you next week on the Happen To Your Career podcast.

55:37
Anytime you find yourself saying well, only if then, or only when this happens, then I can do X, Y, Z that I always stop and question it. It may end up to be true somehow but most of the time there are ways around it or there are ways to start a smaller version of that from right where you are.

Scott Anthony Barlow 55:58
Oh, I'm so excited. I can't wait until you tune in. I'll see you right back here on Happen To Your Career. Until then, I am out. Adios.

Scott Anthony Barlow 56:13
It helps so many people we need it. Blah.... I'm sorry for the editing in advance. Just giving you bloopers, I guess sort of.

Scott Anthony Barlow 56:24
And it means we get to have help either more. Yeah. Starting over.