432: Intentional Happiness: The Importance Of Being True To Yourself

Jenn Lim 00:11
For me, sort of selfishly, was when I was down and out. And, like, I was 28, 29 and like a whole trifecta happened to me. I got laid off from my job, 911 happened, like...

Introduction 00:33
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:57
I am a total nerd when it comes to anything that has to do with the science around happiness, psychology, and I just absolutely love it. And that's one of the reasons why I was so excited to have our next guest on the show. But the other reason was, because well, I had been a fan of her work for... going on 10 years now.

Jenn Lim 01:25
So it was a selfish, sort of, like, inward look of, well, what is meaningful? So before I got to the organizational stage, I had to do that hard reflection within myself. And then understanding that "oh, purpose" and this was the terminology that is now versus then. But what was it for you? Like, how can I make these big decisions of, where I work, where I live, who I go out with, you know, like, and not have to, like, have a whole conundrum every single time. I realized it was like, Okay, what is the most important thing to me?

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:00
That's Jenn Lim. She's the author of a brand new book called 'Beyond Happiness'. She learned how to identify what was really important to her after she had been laid off from her job, her dad was diagnosed with cancer. All of that was happening at the same time as 911 was occurring and all the global events that followed. Well, after looking internally and doing much research, Jen learned how to be much more intentional and leverage the science in psychology behind happiness. This led to her working as a consultant with Tony Hsieh, the former CEO at Zappos, and later the two of them co founded the company Delivering Happiness. Take a listen to Jen's story, but basically pay attention later on in the episode because she talks about what actually works as it relates to career happiness.

Jenn Lim 02:58
Just, kind of, paint this picture of this journey of like, and, I don't know if you read the book, or just seen the book, or whatever, but one of the things that we talked about is the highs and lows of life, and heartbeats of our life. So for me, sort of selfishly, was when I was down and out. And, like, I was 28, 29 and like a whole trifecta happened to me. I got laid off from my job, 911 happened, my father got colon cancer diagnosed with colon cancer. So all this was like, "wait, what the... what is going on?" Like, I was making good money, you know, that calm days, right? Flying high. I was like, oh, even though I majored in Asian American Studies, I'm able to tell my mom and dad, "Don't worry, I got it." And of course, everything fell. So for me, that was a huge sort of awakening point of "Wait, what is this matter again?" So super existential questions that I think, COVID actually, in the last, you know, 2020 of last one and a half years brought back to our lives. So at that moment, I just wouldn't look inward, because all the things that I thought were important, which was, at that time, you know, I was like, in school and all that money, internal status was like, "I need to make that happen." And then I got it. And then it was like, "Wait, it's gone. And I still feel nothing more meaningful than before." So it was a selfish, sort of, like, inward look of, well, what is meaningful? So before I got to the organizational stage, I had to do that hard reflection within myself. And then understanding that "oh, purpose" and this was the terminology that is now versus then. But what was it for you? Like, how can I make these big decisions of where I work, where I live, who I go out with, you know, like, and not have to, like, have a whole conundrum every single time. I realized it was like, "Okay, what is the most important thing to me?" So that's how it all started. And so this is pre my days at Zappos, pre Delivering Happiness and then through that time for him was more organizations and leaders, and when I say leaders, I mean at every level, like, we're all leaders, right? So when leaders get that sort of lightbulb in their own way, then that's when actual change happens. So that was my inspiration, just like figure out my own life and see what that means. And I was like, "Oh, wait, this can actually be scaled to organizations and teams. And we can actually make this world a happier place" you know, like, all those collegiate type of thoughts and mentality became real to me from a scientific basis, there's the positive psychology and all that, but that's kind of the trajectory of what I've seen, of what actually makes change happen in the world.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:38
That is really interesting. And I told you earlier that I've been aware of your work for over 10 years, around 10 years or so now. But I don't think I was aware of, you know, what took place in, sort of like, early career and everything like that for you until I was prepping for our conversation. And now what I'm really curious about when you were going through all that for yourself, and you're sort of having this inward look, do you remember what any of those realizations were for you? Or you said just a moment to go, "Hey, I had to figure out what were the priorities for me. Or what was most important for me." Do you remember where you... any of the pieces that you arrived at at that time?

Jenn Lim 06:14
Yes, sure. It's, like, probably because I had to write this freaking book. And they have to... the way, what are those...?

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:22
Now you're prepared for this conversation. The thing you had to write a book.

Jenn Lim 06:27
Oh, yes. Not the easiest way to go back into having reflections and memories. But there was two things: it was the inward one and the outward one. So the inward one was very, like, existential like, "Wait, what the frick am I doing right now? Like, why does this even matter? And what matters to me?" That turn point, like, that turning point for me was when I saw all these people suffering, you know, like, with the layoffs, with the 911, with my dad, you know, getting diagnosed with cancer, it's almost like, "wait, that's kind of crazy, because I've been spending all this time trying to work, work, work, and make myself established. I have a status for myself, but I'd actually rather be spending time with the people I love" So that turning point was very significant, because then I knew I was making decisions on, number one, the people I love and care about, including humanity in the world. So that was a big one. And then so that was inward. Like what my own purpose is, it's for serving people but being true to myself, number one. Being the authentic self is realizing this is how I'm going to make decisions. And then there was the external side, which is, "What am I going to do with this, sort of, aha moment of like, yeah, I want to be true to myself so what am I do with it?" And then it's the realization, I can connect that to other people, like, what is it that I was brought here for, what I'm passionate about, or purposeful for. And then at that moment, it was like, "Well, I don't necessarily need to be in corporate America or corporate world anymore, I want to actually want to understand how this new realization comes out in the work I do, whether it's passion stuff with art, or you know, creativity, or within the business realm, which has a lot of creativity too." So that's when I realized that's the extension of, number one, I had to be true to what was going on inside, get my values straight, get my priorities straight, make my decision making and cloud, like, all this craziness in my head, sink into groundedness, and then extend that to others. Because I realized that was my number one value as people, how do I have those relationships with others?

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:40
You know, what's really interesting to me is, I heard you say something earlier, too, about, you know, as you had some of these realizations, and then you started doing other different types of work, you started seeing that some of the science actually supported what you had sort of realized for yourself too, as well. And I think that's been a bit of a conundrum for me over the years. If we go back, you know, 20 plus years ago or so, that was... I very much felt that I worked for a number of organizations, well, I'm really glad for the experiences, you know, some of these were considered to be great organizations from people standpoint, and yet being in them and around them, it still felt very non human, and like, I couldn't be myself at work. And then later on, I had a similar experience where, as I started understanding what the research and science says, it's like, "Oh, no, no. I wasn't totally way off pace." So I'm curious, what's behind that for you as you were going along on that journey, as you started work with Zappos and other organizations later on, what did that trajectory look like for you? And what became apparent?

Jenn Lim 09:42
Yeah, as you were sharing your story, I feel like we're totally living parallel tracks. Because here I was going in my whole, like, "wait, what is this all mean?" I thought I had it figured out for myself. And then I came across this whole body of research and the science, like, "wait, there's happiness science in positive psychology", like, this was huge and new. And this was when I started, like, collaborating with Tony at Zappos and all that stuff and implementing that in an organizational level. But that was that moment of like, *ting*, like, "Wait, I don't have to do all the research. I don't have to make myself a guinea pig of everything. I actually can learn from this body of work." So the top things that came from that, sort of, awakening was there's actually scientific lovers that actually focus on not what's wrong with us, per se, but actually what's right with them, and to be honest with those wrong with us, but I should be recognizing that, "Okay, these are the things that can help me get up in that level." So senses of autonomy or control, sense of progress, growing, developing, learning, a sense of connectedness, a huge one, especially right now, when we're on demand and all that, like, "who am I connected to" and I would like to do that in my workspace, ideally, not just at home. And then ultimately having that higher purpose, and that word is being used a lot these days. But really, what am I doing beyond myself was that connection to this greater thing called the world and the universe. So when I came across that, I was just, like, what, like, those are the levers that are scientifically proven. And it became a tool, you know, like being able to say, "Oh, these are the things that I can remind myself on a daily basis, like, what are the things that I can have more control of?" So that's like a personal decision not to go back to the corporate world, but to actually do crazy passionate things and start my own company, co-founded something with Tony, you know, all those things. And then, like, you know, the progress stuff, like, how do I feel like I'm developing in life as a person, not just a worker or employee, making sure my connections are meaningful that how's the weather or you know, who won, you know, the baseball game today, I mean, those are super important. But there's layers within that, that get us really deeply grounded with each other. And of course, that higher purpose that we all hear so much about, but having the ability to feel it on a day to day basis was what that journey became of when I was, like, "Wow, this is happening. This is already existing in the world. How do I connect myself to that?" So that became like, "The Hero's Journey", if you're familiar with Joseph Campbell's work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:20
Yes. Absolutely. Well, and it also leads to another question that I was really interested in asking you. And from your perspective, you know, you're talking about purpose, which is over the last 10 years becomes sort of a buzzword, like engagement, and all of the others that have followed. What do you feel like, are some of the biggest or what have you seen are some of the biggest things that stop people from feeling that sense of purpose, that sense of connection to purpose? What are some of those biggest restrictors if you will?

Jenn Lim 12:52
Yeah, I think, I mean, this is a little too basic in the sense, like, as human beings were resistant to change, and then I'm a huge, like, fan of science and nature. And so I geek out on all that stuff and how systems happen in the world with animals. So, like, a Darwin thing is, it's not the smartest or strongest that survive, it's those that are most able to adapt. I'm paraphrasing here. Because he has a whole body of work, but so that, I think, is where that, sort of, natural selection in some ways, like, the animals and the eco systems and the bio systems that survive or those that adapt. And we are not, as humans, equipped for that naturally, whereas nature animals are usually more equipped, but either that or they not. So I think that's the biggest barrier within ourselves, like, we're so... when we get into our comfort zone of what works, it's so hard to change it because like, why would we want to move away from something that feel safe, and this goes again, back to the prehistoric ages, like we just want to survive, like, our brain works that way. So that we're, when we're primal, I just want to survive. I'm just hitting this, you know, mid cortex versus my prefrontal because I don't want my prefrontal to make decisions because I'm just in this, you know, freeze mode of life. So I think it goes back physiologically, it goes back, I don't want to be eaten by a lion. But these days, there's not many lions going on, at least where I live, I don't know where you're living.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:25
You know, it's pretty crazy out here in Central Washington. To be clear, I also don't want to be eaten alive.

Jenn Lim 14:31
There's different types of lions out there. But basically, that really primal desire to protect yourselves is there but that's why I think we're at a different stage now. We're more elevated and we have the luxury of being able to talk about these things that even my parents didn't have, they were trying to, you know, put food on the table, you know, and I'd love to hear about yours, ancestors as well. It's like now we have the luxury of, like, thinking about these more bigger elevating things that can transcend this survival mechanism, because this sense of purpose that we know that we were born into, it was in us when we came out of our mom's womb, whether or not we tap into that, because there's so much resistance out there is our choice, it's hard as hell, but it's our choice to go back into it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:19
You know, thinking about that, and it being your choice... I have, well, it sort of makes me think about a few other things too, at the same time. And, one of the other pieces, I know that, you know, even though you're doing organizational work, right before we got on here, really hit the recording button, we were talking a little bit about how it can't be driven 100% from the organization side to show up and be able to just expect that the organization is going to 100% allow you to just be yourself at work, it has to be driven from both sides in many different ways, which means there has to be work done from the individual, as well as the organization in order to create a, I'm going to call it a situation, that allows people to show up and be their whole selves at work, which is something both you and I geek out about. So I'm curious, how do we distinguish between what are some of the pieces that we really need to do for ourselves versus what organizations can do?

Jenn Lim 16:21
I love these questions. I'm really glad that we're talking again, after all these years of, like, you following this, because it's such a current pressing question to answer, especially right now. Sort to me, like, that asshole that says, gotta read my book, because I don't want to be that person.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:39
The book is great, though. It's worth a read. I will say, I read it, and I enjoyed it immensely.

Jenn Lim 16:45
Thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:45
Break down for us. What are some of the lines?

Jenn Lim 16:48
Before the asshole, like, the main saying, like, oh, as I say in my book, that's the line that's like, hard for me to say because, but basically, the separation between what's internal and external. So I kind of touched upon this before. So I'm calling what we are in right now the adaptive age. Like this is Darwinian, this is like, basically, we've gone through all these eras of generations of being farmers, and then industrialists, and then technologists, and then now I feel like we're in the adaptive age. So what that means for me is like, let's control we can within and embrace and adapt to what we can control. So that to me is the separation between inner and outer of organizations. So the inner is like, and as I referenced in the book, a lot about purpose and values. And I go through all these exercises of understanding what really is you can, like, basically guess those will evolve over time, but at least putting a stake in your ground, on our ground, in everyone's ground and say, "Hey, I've done a bit of work" and understanding what that is. So I can draw that line and said, "This is what means everything to me."

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:51
I'm super curious, give me an example of one or two of those exercises that you're referring to.

Jenn Lim 17:55
Yeah, so one of them, first one is the Happiness Heartbeats one, like as you can imagine, like on a heartbeat monitor, the metaphor for that is that, "that's life." And even though we're, you know, my company is called Delivering Happiness, this book is called "Beyond Happiness", it's knowing that those highs and lows will come. And so as an exercise, it's really simple, it's basically storytelling your own life, and identify those highs and lows in your life from childhood. And it's really important to include the whole thing, and I actually encourage people to not just think about work, I think about life, because it's pretty much time we spent on earth.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:30
It's mutually dependent on...

Jenn Lim 18:33
Right, or integration. Yes. So when you map those things out, just think top highs, top high moments, three on each side, and then three low moments, and then go to each of those moments and ask yourself, you know, "what values were there not there?" "what people were there or not there?" asking those questions, just kind of dissect it, knowing the highs are as just as important as your lows in determining what that's sustainable happiness is, that's what truthfulness is all about. So that's an exercise that we really encourage, like, one of the first things to do is like, let's just, you know, before we talk about anything else, go into your life, your own journey. And that reflection is really cool. And then the other one is what I call "the wheel of wholeness". So if you can imagine a whole bunch of like pieces in the pie, one of the things that in organizations that I work with, that don't have yet but are working there is to understand not just the employee lifecycle, like "oh, I'm gonna, like, recruit, and then train" and then they're gonna leave. It's more about the holistic life cycle. So the wheel of wholeness is about these puzzle pieces, or these pie pieces that are important to every individual. So it's not just about how they are as employees, but as human being. So the pie pieces are about not just like, "are you feeling gratified or satisfied with your work? it's like, "where are you financially? Are you feeling sound?" Because that affects your psychological state and whether or not you're productive work. If you're freaking out about, "I'm not getting enough", then you're not going to be as productive, kind of thing. And then the other pieces are, "Where are you mentally? Where are you emotionally? Where are you relationally, with people in and outside of work? And where are you spiritually or purposefully?" that kind of thing. So that expands it in a way that we're looking at employees as human beings, knowing that psychological state will affect anytime they move into the work state. So those are a couple exercises that we like to do just because it gives you a snapshot. And then once you check in again, you know what to dial up, dial down, and things to work on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:37
I appreciate you sharing those in detail. That's super helpful. I also recognize that I diverted you from the original question that I asked as well, which was, you know, where, and we can go back to it as well, because you were on a really good trend line there. You were starting to tell me a little bit more about where is that line in terms of how can we think about like, what does the company responsible for or organization responsible for versus what am I responsible for? So I'm curious, any other thoughts that you have on that, too?

Jenn Lim 21:04
Yeah. So I think this we've come to a place like people talk about future work all the time. And it's kind of like, what does that mean? So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:13
Thank you for saying that out loud. Yes.

Jenn Lim 21:16
Okay, like that sounds like...

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:18
Like engagement or something at this point. Yeah.

Jenn Lim 21:21
Anyhow, that matters to me. But I really feel like this whole concept of this future of work of AI technology and displacement, and re, you know, re skilling and all that, it just got totally ushered in, in quick form in 2020, without us knowing it, and the future work. So basically, those decisions need to be made of who's responsible for what and what I say in the book, I call it not just accountability, but co owned accountability with each other. And what I mean by that, and I know, accountability sounds like, "Ugh, what is it?" It's another one of those words, everyone's sick of hearing it. But I'm thinking about accountability in villages. You remember back in the day, like when we're all in villages, no one was designated certain teams or certain roles, we were all accountable for each other, because we want to survive, fast forward to how dolphins operate, or orcas operate. They're all accountable for their roles. Because one dolphin is a swimmer underneath and like, get all the fish up, so everyone else can eat. And those things are ingrained in a natural way. So what I mean by co owned accountability is whatever position you're in, it's just so important. This is where the twist comes in, too, like to have these conversations, to have that sense of like, "wait, what am I bringing to the table? What are you bringing to the table? And how are we going to work on this together?" Because even organizations that say from the get go, like, "we're gonna give you an amazing employee engagement, and all these perks and all that stuff" at the end of the day is really who you work for, and who you work with. It's like your team, that you really need to have that really honest, transparent communication with. So in some ways, it depends on the team and the organization you work with. But what's really helpful to the conversations in terms that line, the question that you're originally asking, when you come to the table, knowing that this is my, this is who I am, my purpose, my values, and if this engagement or this team is not honoring that, why would I continue to do that? I mean, it's easier said than done for certain times and people but that's kind of where I draw the line, like in terms of, do I want to live in a life of integrity and being true to my authentic self?

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:34
One of the pieces of really simple logic that I always go back to is if you don't know what those are for yourself, it's difficult to ask for them, it's really difficult to have those types of conversations that you're talking about, if I don't understand what I stand for, if I don't understand what I value the most is really difficult for me to articulate that to someone else. You know, another really interesting thing and I'm curious your opinion on this too. But we've found, and I'll give you a little bit of preface or context, a lot of the work that we will do is we'll help people make career changes often what people consider to be the type of sort of unicorn career changes where they're transitioning to a role or organization or situation that does allow them to be so much more of themselves but part of the magic behind that is that they first have to understand what it is that they want. Now here's the here's the part that's really interesting to me, is that I find that in many many many situations where people think it's impossible to create a situation where you can be more of yourself and people look at that and go, "Yeah, that organizations not going to do that" or like, "that boss is never going to say yes to that." But so many of those situations, if you know what it is that you stand for, you know what aligns with your purpose, if you know what you are aligns with what you value, then when you can articulate it and do ask for what you want, you can usually find some resolution that is in alignment. Yeah. So I'm curious, what's been your experience on that?

Jenn Lim 25:07
First of all, I love what you all do. I love what your organization does towards...

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:11
Thank you.

Jenn Lim 25:11
Feel like we're, you know, we're cut from the same cloth basically, in terms of what we're trying to strive for, because you know, who wants to wake up unhappy and sleep unhappy? Because this is our time. And being the best we can. So love that. And you're totally right, it's not easy. And it's not to say that the work that we are talking about is easy at all. But the question is, is it worth the effort if it means waking up every morning, and being able to feel and say, "Look, I don't have to turn on the news, or I don't have to, like go on my feed and I have to see what's going on the world. I am grounded within because I know my purpose and values." And I know that's easy to say. But like, that's why these exercises that I introduce are talked about in the book are so important, because at least it's a line in the sand of understanding that. But yeah, of course, it's not easy to implement. But one of the things I would say, having been on both sides of the table of hiring, and trying to be hired, when someone comes to the table with that sense of who they are, what they believe in, if I put my employer hat on, I'd be like, "this person is who I need, like that sense of like, that's resistance to the chaos around us." That's a sense of like, "no matter what's gonna happen, I'm resilient", you know, I'm already grinding myself. So no matter what, like with your company, if I agree or aligned with your purpose or values as a company, I'm all in because I already know that within me. So from both sides, you can kind of see it's, kind of like, it lights up and it becomes a gauge, you know, coming to an interview is not like, "Oh, I hope I can impress this person. It's just like..." And other person, if I was that employer, I'd be like, "Oh, shit, like, I want to learn from you, too." Like, that's the kind of engagement I think people, your audience, would probably be amazing in changing how we work in life and how we show up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:08
Well, I think you made such a great point, too, like, when you're grounded in yourself, and all of those ways that you had mentioned, when you're in that interview type situation or that type of conversation. It's not about "oh, my goodness, how can I impress this person so that I get hired" instead, it becomes much more of a real partnership type of conversation has been my experience. But it doesn't happen without that work. And it doesn't happen without that understanding. You can't just like fake that conversation.

Jenn Lim 27:34
Right, exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:36
Not well, at least.

Jenn Lim 27:37
Not well. And it shows, I mean, you know, and then some people are naturally more introverted and all that. But, I think that if that other person, like if that person that's looking to interview you or interviewing you doesn't see your authenticity, and how genuine you're being about things that matter, then it's kind of like, well, you've benefited from that, because you automatically know this is not going to be a good fit anyway. Because who wants to show up to that every day at work. So it is a very, like exchange a partnership, as you said, of people and personalities, and what it means to be heard and be able to do therefore good work and progress and be connected and feel both ends are being, like, are benefiting from that social contract, but in a work relationship.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:25
So I have two more questions. Let's be honest, I really have like 72 more questions, but we only have time for maybe two more so. So...

Jenn Lim 28:36
If you want to call me at midnight, Scott, we can talk then.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:39
Fair enough. Careful what you wish for. You might get that midnight call. The hardest of the hitting questions first. How often these days do you do spontaneous dance parties? Like I've been seeing that on various forms of your bio for like 10 years. So how often does that happen nowadays?

Jenn Lim 28:57
Well, right now if you're down to do one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:00
Oh, we can... I wish I would have, like, thought to like queue up some music or something. I'm looking around, the same, we can just do it without music like...

Jenn Lim 29:07
Yep, we can. Silent dance party.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:10
Silent dance party.

Jenn Lim 29:12
I tried to get, well, I don't try because it's spontaneous. But it happens. Once a day, ideally more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:20
Ideally more. That's fantastic. So here's my other actual question, too, well, you know, I'll preface this a little bit too. We have many people in various leadership roles in all kinds of organizations listening, and our audience. And also, many of these same people are thinking about their career and their life for themselves. So I would love to ask, you know, what advice would you give them on two different fronts? Thinking about someone who is potentially going to make a career change and wanting to find the type of situation where they can be much more of themselves at work and then simultaneously, on the other side of that, too, where they are potentially having an impact on an organization to allow that and enable that and make that a part of reality.

Jenn Lim 30:08
Yeah, I love that question. Because I think most of the world is going through right now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:14
It has various stages of that.

Jenn Lim 30:15
Yeah. So it's like, kind of, one on his way out, and people aren't showing up to work saying, like, "No, I don't think I need that anymore." So it's really interesting, because the conundrum is you would have thought that everyone's like, chomping at the bit to get a job again, but people are like, "Wait, I don't think so. Like, that doesn't fit my needs of raising my child, or like, the work hours are not good." You know, there's an interesting play going on between who, like, where the scale is between corporate and basically being human being and wanting to work. So I think two things come to mind. One of them is, as you're thinking about these career shifts, not to sound like a broken record, purpose or values, just do those exercises really quick and, like, root yourself in that. It's actually really eye opening. Most people think they know, though, but when they do the exercise, they're like, "Oh, wait, I didn't prioritize that, right?" And then the next thing is, as you're entertaining these different kinds of scenarios, there's two questions I would ask in these scenarios, like, "What's in it for me? What's in it for all?" And when you're able to answer both of those questions, then you have a very clear answer to, wait, because if your purpose values is grounded, then you understand "Okay, this is what's in it for me. And then by answering what's in it for all, then that answers more of that purpose", you know, that 'we thing' instead of the 'me thing' of, what does it serve other people? What does it serve customers? What does it serve society? All that stuff. So when you have those two questions in mind as you go through these changes, and it lights you up, because "Oh, wow, it actually serves my purpose and serves like I want to do something great for society and community. But it also serves me too, because I know I need XY and Z things because that's what I believe in." So that's sort of a simple, like, kind of, mental model to think through and doing this shifts. The other thing I would remind, and it's also a big part of like, why I wrote the book. I use this metaphor about greenhouses. And we, you know, it's kind of like when you're in plane, I don't know, when's the last time you were in plane, but you know, and...

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:12
I just got back from a month-long trip. So we took a bunch of different planes. So...

Jenn Lim 32:15
Oh, awesome. So you remember that routine of COVID. So you know, the oxygen masks that fall like that whole thing. We're so used to hearing that, like, put yours on first before putting on any walls, but we don't really practice that in life. So the greenhouse metaphor is basically, moreso, wanting to help, you know, we've tried to grow and nurture other greenhouses, but sometimes we forget to tender. So I think that's a big thing about considering these shifts is to have those two things in coexistence, making sure that you tend your own greenhouse, knowing that you want to grow and nurture others as well. And it could be anyone like me, your friends, your family, your kids, you know, all of the above global society, whatever it is, change the world, all these things fit in this society in the realm of the other greenhouse, just make sure you're tending your own as you're doing that for others.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:04
I very, very much appreciate that. And the book that you so kindly wrote in preparation for this interview is "Beyond Happiness". And I really enjoyed it immensely. And I want to hear something that struck me, I actually copied and pasted and wrote it down. And I thought it was really, really great. You had written someplace in there, I can't remember what chapter it was in. But "when life gives us lemons, companies in survival mode, just pass out the lemons until they run out. And if they're thinking slightly longer term, they'll actually build a lemonade stand, but if they're adapting and thriving, they'll use the seeds to plant more lemon trees, so everyone can have a stand of their own." And I just thought that was so useful as, not just a way to think about part of what you're talking about in the book, but just as a mantra for how this whole set of topics that we've been discussing works. So I really appreciate that. And I will probably quote that in the future someplace else, 'cause I love it. Thank you for the conversation. I really appreciate it. I, selfishly, you have been on a mental list of mine of people who, you know, 10 years ago, I'm like, "I'm would love to get to know her. She seems fantastic." And I will say that you are just as delightful to talked to as I had hoped, and maybe even more so 10 years ago. So I appreciate it.

Jenn Lim 34:20
Thank you. Maybe it takes that 10 year incubation for it to happen, but...

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:24
You know, that could be. But I'll take it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:29
Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided that they wanted to take action and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com, just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:41
One of the biggest things that we hear again, and again, and again, as we have conversations with people all over the world, not just here in the US, but every place across the globe is the issue of time. Time, because it takes a large amount of time to do just a normal career pivot, normal career change, let alone for the types of career changes that we've discussed on this podcast again, and again, and again, where you're really maximizing for what you want out of life, what you want out of your career, and want to be able to, you know, grow and show up in the ways that you want to, that's a different type of career change. And as it turns out, that also has a tendency to take more time. And the reason this becomes a question is because, where are you going to get all this time? Where is that going to come from? And that is... that's real, it's a real challenge. So we thought, well, hey, this is something we are helping people reconcile with every single day. So why not do a podcast episode about it? We do this for ourselves, when I say ourselves, I'm talking about our entire team. And we also do this for our clients across the globe. So I have with me today, our Director of Client Success, Phillip Migyanko. You've heard him on the podcast many times before, but he's back today to discuss, how do you not save time, although we're gonna talk about that too. But how do you even create time in some ways for yourself to be able to divert towards career change, or anything else that might be even more important in your life too. All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.