390: Never Feel Lost During A Career Change: An Inside Look

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:03

By definition, 87% of people are in roles, in jobs that they're not overly satisfied with or excited about. So...

Matt East 00:12

That's insane. That is...

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:13

It is insane. It is absolutely absurd, especially since that's where we spend most of our waking hours.

Introduction 00:23

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit. You figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change. Keep listening. Here's Scott, here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Joshua Rivers 00:47

We've all reached a moment in some part of our lives where we thought, this can't be it, there has to be a better way. Now, if you've reached that point like that in your career, well, today, you'll get a first hand look at why you are not alone. More importantly, you'll discover what to do when you start yearning for more meaningful career, or at the very least being able to do work that fits you, and not the other way around.

Matt East 01:21

You get like one run at this thing. Like I didn't realize the numbers were that dramatic, like 80, some percent, are unhappy in their current roles that is just like, super sad, actually.

Joshua Rivers 01:33

That's Matt East. He's the host of two podcasts, the Goal Achievement podcast and the Better Humans podcast. Matt is also the author of the Purposeful Planning Method: How to Plan Your Day, Beat Procrastination and Regain Control of Your Time. In today's episode, we're sharing a conversation between Scott and Matt, that actually aired on the Goal Achievement podcast. Now as they start off the conversation here, Matt asked Scott to share all the details leading to his own career change, and starting Happen To Your Career ultimately, leading to helping others do the same.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:11

The idea came from a lot of pain, to be quite honest. I was the type of guy that if you go way back and you go to college, I was one of those people that had made, I don't know, eight, nine different major changes. And then eventually, sunk my teeth into business. And then as I moved out into the real world, I ended up accepting what many people would call "a good job", well my friends and family said, "hell, you've got to take this. It's amazing opportunity." I was, you know, pretty young at that time and had like 20 people or so underneath me as I went and moved my brand new bride at the time, Alyssa down to Portland, Oregon, and did accept that role. And then found very quickly that I hated it. It was pretty horrific. I started having what I later learned were anxiety attacks, as I was driving in on my hour and a half commute to work and you know, three hours a day commute total typically. And you know, I found myself they stopped in traffic, like looking around and looking at all the other faces in the cars and be like, "This can't be what it's really like to go to work. This is terrible?" Yeah. Yes. Unfortunately, way too many of us have really similar stories. And, you know, I ended up having the whole works, I gained like, 50 pounds over that time, and, you know, was working 80 to 90 hour weeks are pretty normal at that point in time. So, a year this went by, and I finally said, "Okay, look, I cannot do this anymore." So I figured I've got to do something. You know, long before the podcast, I was there in this experience trying to figure all this out. And then I decided, "Okay, well, I've got to talk to my boss. Like, I just can't, I didn't know what else to do. I can't keep doing this." So I called up my boss who was in a different city, and told him "Hey, I think I'm maybe made the wrong choice. I'm not sure that this job is a great fit." And apparently, he thought so too. Because three weeks later, he fired me. So...

Matt East 04:13

Oh, wow.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:15

Yeah, I, it was unexpected for me too. And as I was driving home, in the Portland rain, in the rain and the misery and the gray skies and everything that went along with it, I had to call my wife earlier and tell her "Hey, I know I moved down to Portland, but I don't even have a job to show for it." I realized that I couldn't ever do this again. So I decided right then and there that I had to figure out a way to find work that was going to actually fit what I wanted and not be miserable and instead, maybe be wonderful and exciting and good fit for me that leverage you know what I'm good at and my strengths and I didn't know how I was going to do that. But I just knew that I, at the time I couldn't keep doing this. So the next 10 years, were figuring that out. And that's ultimately what led to our business Happen To Your Career, which is the same name of our podcast that Happen To Your Career podcast. And it very much came about that was having the same conversation after I went and figured this out for myself and made all these different career changes and transitions. And people were asking me questions like coworkers and friends and family, and they were saying things like, "hey, how did you go from operations into HR management? Like, that's a huge pivot." Or, "you got a $40,000 raise, like, how do you... like I barely got 5%. Like, how do you get a $40,000 raise off cycle?" And I was getting all these types of questions again, and again. And I know before you and I hit the record button here, I said, I've got a cup of coffee in my hand, but I'm a sucker for coffee. So people were buying me coffee and taking me to coffee and asking me all these questions. And I thought this was amazing, because I was helping them and they were making big transitions. And they were sending me thank you notes and starting to offer to pay. So at that point in time, I realized that I wanted to transition away from one of my jobs, which I really enjoyed. It was a dream job for me, but I was having the itch to do my own thing. And the podcast and the business became a part of what I was already doing, and already finding myself in those conversations again and again. So that's how it happened.

Matt East 06:20

How long is the podcast been around now?

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:22

Six years.

Matt East 06:23

Wow, man that's a big run. Yeah. I mean, I've seen it. I've seen it be named, like on the top podcasts for career like multiple times. I knew it was more than a year, I didn't realize six years. That's legit, man. That's awesome.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:37

Well, I appreciate that. The first couple of years, we did not have as many listeners by a longshot.

Matt East 06:42

I love it. I love the name. It's like very proactive versus reactive. And we talk all the time on the podcast from like, owning your schedule and just life in general trying to be proactive, and as opposed to reactive, and... so how did you come up with the name?

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:59

The name came from... Well, first of all, I came up with a lot of really terrible names that I didn't really like first long before we got to this one. But I really wanted something that gave people the exact indication of what we do, which part of what we do, a big portion of what we do is we help people take control. And if you look at the root words, that career comes from, and you start looking back into the Latin and the derivatives from Italian and everything else along the way, you start to realize that carious, or career or some of the other versions of it, are the same root words as things like carriage, which, if you go way back used to mean, the "pathway that was left after a wheel would roll through from a carriage" or it, there's a lot of other definitions there too. But basically, it means the length of time, the path, the journey is essentially what it means. So Happen To Your Career literally means "take control of your journey" which is really what we wanted to allow people to do and help people realize that they had much more influence over their life and their career and what they got the opportunity to do than they realized.

Matt East 08:14

Why do you think some people don't realize that?

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:17

Well, I think that, you know, without getting all incredibly philosophical on you, I think that it partially comes from some of the expectations that we have in society. And if I am at a job, and I have a lot of structure around me, let's say that, you know, I worked for corporate America for quite a while and had some wonderful, some amazing jobs, I've got the opportunity to work for some pretty cool companies actually, over the course of time. But if I'm in that role, there's a lot of structure, a lot of policy, all kinds of other things, some very definitive, normal ways. And a lot of people don't realize that even in those really structured environments, there are so many opportunities to be able to step outside of what the norm is and have influence. So I mentioned jokingly, the $40,000 increase earlier, but even getting a raise in an off cycle way, that's not something that is norm. And it's something where, you know, if you did that, if you work for an organization, and they have very established pathways that that stuff happens, then you have to essentially get an exception made for you. And that is hard to do in a lot of different ways. And anytime we're going off script, or going off the beaten path, it's not something that I find that there's not a lot out there in the world, describing how to go off the path. There is a lot out there in the world that we're exposed to, for how to stay on the path in one way or another, whatever that path is. By definition, it causes us to think that we need to go with the flow. That was a really long winded way to say that I think everything around us is kind of in some way pressing in, encouraging us to go with the flow. And taking control often means that you're going against what is already in existence, because what's good for you may potentially be slightly different than what is normal or what is that normal pathway.

Matt East 10:16

You think for people to find, like work that they love, most people have to get off that standard pathway or not?

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:24

Well, by definition, 87%, depending on which study you look at, it ranges someplace between low 70s to as high as 87% of people are in roles, in jobs that they're not overly satisfied with or excited about. So...

Matt East 10:41

That's insane. That is...

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:42

It is insane. It is absolutely absurd, especially since that's where we spend most of our waking hours. However, it's not just one study, it is many, many studies. And yes, there's a range. But, you know, 70 to nearly 90% of people are misaligned, in roles and in jobs and with companies that they're not excited about. And so yes, by definition for you to do work that fits you that you love that you really are excited about from day to day, I'm not saying it's perfect, and there's unicorns and rainbows and things like that, like everywhere you look but for you to do those types of things in a way that you feel great about. Yeah, you have to get off the, you have to get up outside the norm because the norm is that you don't really like your job all that much. And you do it because you have to in one way or one level or another.

Matt East 11:36

That's actually really sad like to think may not like I mean, I talk all the time on this show like about you get like one run at this thing. Like you get one go and to have... I didn't realize the numbers were that dramatic, like 80 some percent are unhappy in their current roles that is just like super sad actually, like super depressing. It's almost like discouraging, like to think that you get one run at this and to be spinning it doing something you don't want to do every day was just dreadful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:08

One, I love how you put at it, you get one run at this because that's actually really motivating to me, I think you could hear that and have the opportunity to be like, "I only have one run on it , and it's depressing." But I think the other side of that is I only get one run at that. And I'm gonna make it a good one.

Matt East 12:22

Hell yeah, I look at it for sure. I don't think... see it as, I just had a Todd Henry on the podcast. Have you ever read any his stuff? He's accidental, creative, and he wrote a book called Die Empty.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:34

I feel like I have read the book because I've had a lot of it, a lot of my friends have quoted it to me. So I feel like it's gonna be an amazing book. But I have not read it yet.

Matt East 12:44

He's super inspirational. He's an awesome guy. I think he's like a New York Times bestseller. He's incredible. But, yeah, he talks a lot about that. And definitely from like, not a morbid standpoint, like, very positive, like, this is your chance, like, you know, it's, I think I reflect all the time on that, like, I'm going to die. This is going to end, you know, and like in the grand scheme of things, so I just turned 40.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:10

Congratulations.

Matt East 13:11

Yeah. How old are you?

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:13

I should know that. I am 30... I just turned 37.

Matt East 13:20

Okay. I've even gone on and I feel bad now that I say I have gone on because I can't remember what it is. But you know, I like to go on and even put my agent and predict like my day of death. You know, you can do that. Like you're...

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:32

Yeah, yes.

Matt East 13:33

Like that. Yeah, I actually find joy in that because I'm like, oh my god. The math says I've got 41 more year. Like, how is that and how this is gonna be maximized? You know, I'm just like, I'm totally into it. I think it's... I know that sounds morbid, but I absolutely I'm, like, obsessed with thinking about it. And if I'm on the fence a lot of times, like, you know, like, you know, Rachel, my wife wants to take a vacation and I'm being a butt face. I'm like, I should probably keep working, I'm like... She's like, "we live one time. Let's go." You know, it's like it makes a lot a decision, it's very easy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:33

I like Rachel already.

Matt East 14:08

Yeah, everybody likes Rachel. She's been on the podcast. She's much more popular than I am. She's been on one time and gets mentioned every show and everybody loves her. Everybody's lukewarm about me and loves Rachel so.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:21

Well, from your perspective, I think that is still a good place to be, as it turns out.

Matt East 14:27

Yeah, I'm very lucky. I think like the luckiest human ever,. But it's funny we're going so deep because I think I heard you say on one of your podcasts recently that you hate the small talk. Did I hear that? Did you say that? Like you hate, is that the right term? Small talk like chit chat. I don't know what. It was in I think your most recent episode.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:46

Yeah. I just said something similar to that many times over, part of that is my strength. I mean, I like to go very deep very quickly. You can't believe the number of times in my life, I lost count many many many years ago. Where I have heard from people out of going deep again, like I've never told that to anybody else. But I find that for me, part of my, I've only got so many years on the planet, part of what that means for me is I don't want to spend a lot of time talking about the weather and other things that I feel like I have no influence over, I will do that to make other people more comfortable. But that's not something I get a lot of joy out of. It's not the way I like to connect most with other human beings on the planet, I like to talk about the things that are far, far deeper, because, I, well, on one side, let's be honest, I enjoy like being that person that where people can tell me things that they haven't told anybody else. That is something that is actually validating for me as a human being. But the other side of that is I find that I add so much more value at a deeper level to other people. And when those two things are combined together is when I feel the most alive. So yes.

Matt East 15:59

That's cool. It's amazing that you're able to verbalize that so well,. Let me ask you this so and maybe this is a little repetitive, maybe it's not.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:07

Go for it.

Matt East 16:07

What advice would you give to someone who's looking for more like meaning in their work? I feel like people use the word meaning a lot when I'm talking to them about their work, and they kind of feel like there's a lack of purpose or meaning to their work. Any suggestions there?

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:23

Yeah, absolutely, I've got a huge amount of suggestions way more than we have time for. So let me concentrate it into what's probably gonna be most valuable for folks out there that might really feel like they are lacking meaning in one way or another. Because usually, if you're looking for more meaning, that's an indicator that you were missing something or misaligned. That's what we found from doing the type of work that we have with thousands of people trying to help them find much more fulfillment, much more meaning and all the things that have a tendency to go along with it. And one thing that I've learned is that meaning is different for different people. That is something that is overlooked a lot of the time. So I think you have to start there, which means that you have to define, there are some things that are common for all human beings, like we all need to be helping people in some level or another. And if we don't directly see how we're helping people in a way that we can connect back to helping people in a way that we feel good about, then we're not going to feel like we help people because honestly, if you look at every single job on the planet, it's helping people in some way or another, right? I, you know if I'm, taking take... yeah, like if I'm taking out trash or something like that, like most people would not consider that an overly desirable job. If the person... Extremely helpful. It's extremely helpful. Like it helped a lot...

Matt East 17:52

Maybe this considered the most helpful jobs. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:55

Yeah, I would say so too.

Matt East 17:56

Yeah, absolutely. No, I literally just had a conversation, I have a really good friend that owns a trash company. He doesn't call it that, but that's what it is. And it's an amazing service for the community. I mean, it's he's totally serving the community. Yeah, like a really high level. You know, I think he probably struggles a little bit with that, like, he shared that. But I'm like, dude, I mean, it's an extremely, I mean, it's a pretty high calling, actually, to pick up the trash in your community, you know, for like five decades, which is what their family has done, which is incredible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:34

Yeah, and that's such a great example, too, because your friend, if he directly sees and connects, and feels attached to, the how he's helping people in that particular way, then it is going to feel much more meaningful, and therefore often much more fulfilling. However, if he does not, or there is a disconnect there, or there are with what a lot of people will miss or there are other areas that feel more meaningful than that, then that might feel like something that's missing. So there's really two sides to this. One, there are elements that every single one of us needs as a human being. One example is like we just addressed, we all need to feel like we're helping others at some level. But we also all have to define what meaning is, and what is more meaningful too. And here's some other examples that too. We were helping a woman named Laura. And in Laura's case, she was working in a role that she had been with the same company for about eight years or so progressed up through the ranks pretty rapidly. And at first, she was getting tons of growth and having all the good feelings, all the good Juju and all the good things that were very meaningful for her. And then eight years later, she found herself promoted four times making a ton of money and in what most people would consider, like a really desirable place, but now that she had kept saying yes to what was right in front of her and all those different promotions, she found herself in a place where she had gotten farther and farther away from what was really meaningful to her. So we started working with her. And these are questions that you can ask yourself to, to help you find what creates more meaning for you. But we started by trying to identify what are the contexts that feel more meaningful, more exciting, more valuable to you? And some of those might be, hey, do I enjoy most working with groups of people? And at what scope? Or what level? Is that in a leadership capacity? Is that at your state's nation's community level? Or is that you know, one on one, and going through and identifying all of these different pieces and context in where you find the most joy and the most meaning and where you have found that in the past that can give you clues as to what you need to look for, and carry with you into the future?

Matt East 19:20

Oh, it's great. It's really, really insightful. Let me ask you this. So this is a long, terrible question. But I don't know how a word...

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:04

Perfect. Those are my favorite.

Matt East 21:06

I'm dying to ask it. So I'm really interested in this. So how often when someone is thinking in their head that they want to make a career change, or a job change to a different company? And you know, you hear somebody say, like, "I'm not happy in my current job." And they're struggling with that, like, internally. Do you feel like that is typically like an internal problem with the person? Or is it as they're perceiving it like an, they think it's an external problem with their job, like, their job is not making them happy. But then a lot of times, they'll like, make a job change to a different job, and then the cycle just starts back over like temporarily it maybe solve their happiness issue for like, a month or two. And then they're right back where they were after making that job change. Does that make any sense? Do you see that?

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:59

Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. You sound as though you may have either had that happen or know somebody who has had that happened. Because I think that that cycle does repeat itself a lot. And only after, sometimes, only after somebody has done that two or three times do they start recognizing that maybe they need to do something different. So the way that we think about that, to try and tackle your question head on, is we divide those into two different categories, because we call them inward happiness, focus areas, or outward, what we call happiness enablers, and the inward pieces, think about those almost as like building a muscle and getting better at feeling more happy more often, there's a lot of great studies out there is like one that gets tossed around all the time, but I love so I keep using it. The scientists took quite a few different monks that had practice meditation for many years and looked at them and their brain scans over a long period of time. And essentially found that you can grow your prefrontal cortex, which is one of the area's that's most responsible for feeling happy, at any given moment, you can actually grow that with practice, just like you might develop a muscle in any other area of your body. So you can actually intentionally become able to feel happiness more at any given time period, or moment or anything else along those lines. So there's that...

Matt East 23:23

It's like a 100,000% true, like no doubt about it. Like that just makes sense to me, like no doubt about it, like just from like, your friends, like you have friends, I shouldn't even use friends. Like when you work, you had colleagues that like some just decided to be happy, like they were just... they decided at some point, like, they're going to like, be a happy person. You know what I'm saying? Like, some people aren't that happy, like they decided not to be that happy, or, you know, it's very interesting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:51

So that's one side of it, there's really two halves to this equation. The other thing that you can do is set up your outward world, so that you are more likely to experience and you know, touch, feel, interact with those things that are giving you more meaning, more enjoyment, cater to working with your strengths, and all of the other areas that impact your happiness. By the way, really, really quick sub note, I love... Gallup has done some really amazing research over the years on strengths and how it impacts happiness, productivity, you name it a whole bunch of other things too, so as little as one to two hours more a day, working in the areas of strengths, or particularly what we call signature strengths. And I can tell you what that means here in a moment, as little as one to two hours a day more actually drastically impacts your feelings of being happy at any given moment too. So there's really is two halves to the side. There's setting up your outward world in a way that allows you to feel more happy more often and then getting better at being happy. Which is the internal side. So I think that that's those two sides are what you were asking about. Is that right?

Matt East 25:04

Yeah, yeah, that's perfect. What's the signature strength?

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:07

Signature strength. Well, we've got a really long, nerdy definition. But the easiest way to think about signature strengths is almost imagine a Venn diagram with three circles. And in one circle, you've got those things that you're great at, or have the potential to be great at. And I'm not talking about like being great at pivot tables, or something along those lines or being great at Excel. But I'm talking about what's underneath the surface that causes you to be able to do pivot tables better. That's what I'm talking about, in terms of that. So those areas that you're great at, or potential to be great at. And then in another circle, we've got those areas that you get more joy from and feel better about. Sometimes people wouldn't describe it as joy. Sometimes they describe it on in other words, and then in another circle, you've got those areas that you have the highest ability to add value to the world, that one can get very convoluted. So where you've got those intersection of all three are a great way to think about your signature strengths.

Matt East 26:01

Okay? And you said, what? Brings you joy, what you're great at and what else?

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:06

What brings you joy, what you're great at and then what you can add the most value to the world.

Matt East 26:12

If you're great at something, does that have a better chance of bringing you joy?

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:18

I love how you ask that question. Nobody else has ever ever asked me that question. I've done several 100 interviews at this point. And that is the first time so kudos to you for asking that question. I love that question. So the data would indicate, yes. Because those areas that you are better at have a tendency to be associated with those feelings of joy versus if you are terrible at something in one way or another. It falls outside of your strengths, think about it that way. And you can still enjoy it. But mainly be not get the same level of joy, if we're really getting detailed here. So that's one of the most useful lenses that I found to look at that question through, that's such a...

Matt East 27:04

Oh, it's extra helpful. It's really helpful. So I'm gonna put you totally on the spot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:09

Please do.

Matt East 27:10

In doing some research, you know, I to prep for the interview, I looked at your website, I listened to, you know, five or 10, your podcasts looked at your LinkedIn, and you wrote something on LinkedIn that I just love, but it's like three years old, if I asked you a question on it, is there any way you'll recall it at all?

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:29

I have no idea. But you should ask.

Matt East 27:30

Okay. So it's... you wrote an article about how incredible the impact of incremental change can have in your life by just making like very small changes. Why do you think most people are so reluctant to make small changes, even though we know that they can have, you know, a dramatic effect on the back end?

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:51

There's several different reasons that we've found both in the research that I've observed and read and paid attention to over the years, and then what we've seen in practical application in our business, because really, what we do is we help people make pretty drastic changes in a lot of different ways in their lives, and do things that most people might consider to be impossible. And a lot of that is, you know, spread over many months. These are not like small one to two today changes or anything along those lines, we're often helping them change careers or making a massive pivot or identify what they may need and mean most to them in their lives, and then helping them go and do that after they've identified that thing. So we subscribe to what, if you've ever heard a Dave Ramsey, he calls that The Crock-pot Method, the spread over time versus the microwave method. And when you're thinking about incremental change, the challenge there is the way that we're wired as human beings, we have a tendency to not want to take small steps of any kind whatsoever, if we can't see how they directly add up to the whole. So if we are looking at a, I don't know, if we're looking at a map from how to get from point A to point Z, if we can't see the B, C, D, E, F, G, and whatever other letters are in the alphabet, all the way to Z, our tendency as human beings is to not want to take those steps forward, only if we, one, have hope that our efforts are going to pay off or we can see and experience the small momentum that we're getting along the way and get some benefit from that too, do we fall over into the other realm of taking those small, incremental changes. If those things aren't there, plus a few other key ingredients, then we are just a lot less likely to be able to make that happen.

Matt East 29:48

It's interesting. There's a great quote and I can't remember who said it, and I have it but I don't have it written who said it, it says a "it takes practice for humans to hold two opposing perspectives at the same time, just the overwhelming tension between a big vision and small steps" how good is that?

Joshua Rivers 30:07

One of the most helpful resources that we have here at HTYC is our eight day, figure it out mini course. With that, you'll get an email every day for eight days, helping you to figure out your strengths, what it is that you really want, and then start you on a path to figure out how you can fit that into your life and career. To be able to get that, you can go to figureitout.co that's figureitout.co. Now in the next episode, we're going to share an episode all about overthinking and specifically, how not to overthink.

Phillip Migyanko 30:43

If we make to get to a different result, we have to have a different behavior, which means that we have to have a different mindset. And we can never make good decisions when we're in a negative emotional state.

Joshua Rivers 30:54

So that's just a sample of what's to come next week when you're actually to be able to hear from Phillip Migyanko and Sharissa Sebastian. Now, make sure that you're subscribed so you don't miss it. You definitely don't want to do that. You can be able to go into the next year, armed and prepared for whatever is coming up next in your career and your life.