167: From Engineer to Career Coach: Start Collecting Your Data Points

Episode 167  with Gia Ganesh

Scott Barlow: Welcome back to happen to your career. I am excited today because we have a special guest. We haven’t done this very often, but I have someone today that has an interesting story and a really unique background, skill set, and experiences and I’m excited to dig into those. In addition she is a member of the Happen to Your Career team. How are you Gia?

Gia: I’m good. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Scott Barlow: I’m excited to have you. We were talking before we recorded and we are obviously going to dig into your story and also have you hang around and answer some of the common questions we get and try to answer a few of those. Are you game for that?

Gia: Absolutely. Let’s do it.

Scott Barlow: I’m curious where this starts for you. I know some of your background just from working with you and when we were looking to bring you on to the team. You have a lot of experience in a lot of areas, which was appealing for having you on our team, and I find those make the most interesting stories. Where does your career start?

Gia: I’m going to take you back a bit. I grew up in India. For people who are familiar with the Southeast Asian culture you know we are academically focused; At least my generation. We were focused on academics and the word passion never existed. You went to college and either became an attorney, engineer, or a doctor. Those were your three paths by default. You pick and choose from those. I went to college to be an engineer. I got my degree, but I’ve never, ever, called myself an engineer. I never related to it. I am an electronic and communications engineer by degree but never resonated with it. I never did anything with it.

Scott Barlow: You never referred to yourself as an engineer?

Gia: No. And I couldn’t do what that person truly does.

Moving on I got a job through campus counseling and got placed in network engineering. I despised it. It was hardcore technology stuff. It was about hardware- cables, and routers, and modems. I lasted about four to five months and transitioned to software. That is where I think my journey begins.

I started with a multinational company as a software engineer and got an opportunity to move to United States because my husband lived here. At that point I was at a fork in the road, the first I’ve faced out of many. I had to decide, do I go back to software or do something else? Given this terrible, well not terrible, background that I come from I thought I should get a masters in information systems. That is all I had done at that point. I decided to do that and started working as well first as an intern then to a full-time position. I’m from Atlanta, Georgia so I went to get my masters there at Kennesaw State. I was also working and moved up the ladder in the information system industry. I managed bigger projects. Truthfully, I always felt like an imposter because I never connected with it.

So, I’m just climbing the ladder and feeling like an imposter. I decided it was time for me to move out of information systems. I thought I would do the business side of IT. I decided to get my next master’s degree. I quit my job and got my MBA from Georgia Tech. I got a job right away. That was another fork in the road situation. It gave me the opportunity to consult or do something different. I said I would do technology consulting but there were no jobs, so I got different experience in other consulting. I helped with different teams and began to feel the desire and started resonating with other things. I got a great opportunity but it was a stretch.

I don’t have a human resource background but I was handed an opportunity on a silver platter where I would be responsible for doubling the leadership program for the management consulting firm I worked for. I would report right to the CEO and implement the program. Everything fell into place and I found my spot. I had been working toward this all my life and I just didn’t know it.

Scott Barlow: You came from a spot where you didn’t even feel like you could call yourself an engineer at any point. You had cables, routers, but none of that was working for you. It seemed like you were always trying to veer out of it and you kept making small turns and changes to find the right thing. You can see that looking back, but I’m curious, at what point did you start thinking about it - was it when you got to do leadership development and those activities?

When did you see it as passion or enjoyment? When did the switch flip and you realize that there was more than just academics? You go into the job space and you do it well. Was there a point?

Gia: I think it existed all along. It wasn’t at one point but existed through my whole career. When I was at work, specifically when it didn’t resonate with me I knew that there was something else I should be doing. I wasn’t happy with my choice to be an engineer but I didn’t know any better because that was my society and what people did. I should have stood up and done what I wanted, but at that point it is what everyone did, so I just followed the traditional route. I knew I was never supposed to be an engineer. I never felt the connection. I know it’s cliché but, you wake up every morning and you have to look forward to the day. You look forward to waking up and going to work. I never had that, but I have it now. Before it was all about the paycheck but that wasn’t enough. Personally, I wanted to always get better as a person.

I’m going to tie it together. All my life it is about becoming a better version of myself than yesterday, whether it’s relationships or work. It’s a huge factor. Am I better than I was yesterday? I want to be the best I can be, not better than anyone else or xyz. Am I realizing my full potential and doing the best I can? With that mindset it was difficult to stay in a job that didn’t resonate. You can’t be the best version of yourself if the core essence doesn’t feel right to you.

Back to when I did the leadership doubling up program and high potential identification- the essence tied to what I strived for as a person; helping upcoming leaders realize their potential by giving them the right opportunities, mentorship, and guidance to be better leaders. That essence resonated with me so deeply because that’s what I felt personally. That is where it started for me. The talent double-up opened up for me. I love doing it for me, and to see someone else unleash their full potential. That has led to career coaching.

Scott Barlow: That makes a ton of sense to me knowing you and what you stand for. Where it all started feeling aligned. I’m curious because you said it was handed to you on a silver platter, I’d beg to differ, and say everything led to that point. You took these small twists and turns, that I’d say were bigger than I initially thought, especially coming from your societal background. Why did you say it was delivered on a silver platter? What led to that?

Gia: You are right in that I took small steps and turns. I mentioned it was handed to me on a silver platter because with traditional consulting work you are either on a project or on the bench waiting. There were other qualified people on the bench that would have been better suited for the project with organizational psychology backgrounds and yet they decided to go with me even though I didn’t have the background. The flexibility and availability I offered helped me clench the deal. I was going to be available at all times and could talk to anyone, because otherwise I was on the bench waiting for a project. That is why I mention that it was on a silver platter. But I did all the steps I needed to do when I interviewed for that position. I did background research and prepared. You still have to put in the hard work. It doesn’t come without that. Things get handed to you on a silver platter but you still have to do the hard work. You have to do the hard work and can’t supplement that.

Scott Barlow: So you have to get to the point where the silver platter is in front of you and then you have to lock it down. That’s interesting. I feel like that could be a bigger analogy. I know a little of this story, but how did that transpire for you that you are getting a taste of something aligned with who you are and what you stand for in developing this leadership development program? How did you get from there to career coaching? What happened in-between?

Gia: We implemented the leadership program, it takes a few years to work out the kinks. The future for the program was that it would be handed out to the individual markets. My involvement was going to significantly reduce which meant I had to take on other stuff like evaluating the performance of the coaching process and revamp of the career paths and competency models. There were no other bigger projects to get involved in.

The chief officer of the organization said that we would be implementing a coaching program. By then I had started taking coaching classes because I saw it as a way to help myself get better. I was always reading self-help books and passionate about improvement. When I came upon coaching I took it up as something I would like to understand more. I thought coaching was a skill I should have to be a better manager as I worked with emerging leaders. I started taking the course on the side but then we started talking about coaching for the organization and I was the first to jump. I had to be part of it. Everyone was on board. Due to the budget and acquisitions and mergers it didn’t happen for two to three years.

The more I started getting into coaching through courses and certifications I wanted to start seeing the impact I could have on people through coaching. As part of the corporate world, you don’t always see the impact your work has and that is the scenario for most people. They say they are just an accountant or just an analyst -that is all I do. They don’t necessarily have the view into the impact they have on another person’s life or career or impact on the organization as a whole. It is easy to disregard the full impact you can have. That desire started to creep in me. I wanted to see the impact I was having. It wasn’t necessarily something you could see right away because the consultants were in the field and you didn’t get to meet them for long periods of time. As I started to talk to my supervisor about when the program would happen the timeline kept expanding.

As part of the coaching certifications you have to start coaching people so I was already doing in on the side. Since I was already doing it and enjoying it and the work opportunity wasn’t happening I decided to take the plunge. It was something I had on the side so why not take the plunge. It was a long time period, it took a lot of thinking to take the courage to quit. I finally did and branched into my own career coaching business.

Scott Barlow: What do you think some of the hardest parts were to go from that point? It’s a long journey, you were developing skills all the way to getting immersed and finding you enjoyed that type of development, and then you make the big jump and are now doing it as a business. What were some of the hardest parts for you along the way to transition?

Gia: I think the biggest challenge was giving up the paycheck. I believed the job gave me all that I thought I needed: flexibility, stability, career progression, you name it. Flexibility was a huge thing, I have children and need my own timing. I thought it was something not easily available in a corporate job and I had it. You won’t believe if I say it but it was the primary thing that held me back. I was scared if I quit the job and branched out and it didn’t work out and I had to go back to a job I wouldn’t be able to find another job again.

Scott Barlow: That is so funny because you are so good at getting other people jobs.

Gia: And I have two masters’ degrees.

Scott Barlow: You look great on paper. I understand. I do believe you because we work with people with the same fears around any type of change. I get the irony.

Gia: I believed I would never get a job. It took me a few months to work out the fear and all I did was tell myself “I have two masters’ degrees. I may not get the same job but will get a job.” It helped me to change that mindset. It started to help me build confidence in myself that I can get a job and can get another one if it doesn’t work. Having all the back up plans helped me convince myself. Even in my own coaching business I had a back-up plan. I don’t always recommend it because you don’t put all of your effort in to your current job. My back-up was if I don’t meet all these certain metrics in a year then I’m going back to corporate. That was the only way I convinced myself to take the final leap. It helped me. I’ll give it a shot for one year and if it doesn’t work I’ll get some job. It helped me give up my job.

I don’t recommend the plan B situation for everyone, it depends. I’ve noticed if people have a plan B they aren’t putting in their best effort for plan A. They know they have a fall back. It’s not a blanket situation. Take it with a grain of salt, in some cases have a plan B and not in others.

Scott Barlow: That’s so interesting, because I’ve seen the same thing especially for those that are making big departures going from one career to another, or those going from a job working with a company to their own thing. I’ve seen that same thing with different fears. It’s always a fear that pops up. It really does depend on the person because for me it was almost the opposite. I had to tell myself I was one hundred percent in. There can be no other plan. My wife is the opposite. Alyssa wants the back-up plan. We had to go through the worst case scenario and develop a secondary plan to suit us both. It does depend on the person. I’m glad you distinguished that. There are many things thrown around as tactics. In this case it does depend on the person.

I know more from there because it has been about 9 months or a year since you and I first met.

Gia: Yes, that’s right.

Scott Barlow: I don’t know how it’s happened. It feels like yesterday we had met and then we started contact and eventually we were able to convince you to come on board and join us and you so kindly have. I’m super excited to have you here because I really appreciate the way you look at this. You don’t look at career coaching just as getting from point A to B. I know that is why some people come to us, but you approach it from a whole human development standpoint which I think is more valuable instead of a transaction. I appreciate that and I’m excited to work with you.

I’m curious, if we jump back a little and think about all these tweaks and changes that led to this, what advice would you give someone else who is in that situation where they are back at software engineer Gia and know it’s not aligned and are trying to figure out what they can or should do. What advice would you give?

Gia: I’ll try to keep this generic. The first thing to uncover, which I probably didn’t do well at, is what aspects of software development did I not like? Understand first what about the job situation you are in you don’t like. Is it the kind of work, the environment, culture, or boss? Identify what it is you don’t like so you don’t actually throw the baby out with the bath water. When you aren’t clear about what you don’t like it’s difficult to make a change because you try to make a change all over instead of in layers.

For example, when we work with our clients and help them uncover this some people just don’t like the supervisor or team. It’s not about the work but the people or supervisor. It constrains the person to do well. If that is the case, all the person needs to do is find a similar job in a different company where the culture is better or supervisor is better. It just depends on what really frustrates you. Identify that first.

The second step is to understand what you truly want to do. That is a difficult question for many people to answer. They want us to tell them.

Scott Barlow: Yes, “why don’t you have the answer to what I want to do?”

Gia: Many people think they don’t know the answers but they do. We step in and give guidance about the messages to look for. Some of our clients go back to the basics of what they liked as kids. They still hold interest there. We help them uncover that. What did you enjoy doing? What are you interested in today? We do an exhaustive exploration with our clients, but for right now, I will say we explore skills, passion, and we combine everything to help them understand what makes sense to pursue as a career and as a hobby.

For example, I love Zumba. I could do it every day. But would I want to make a living teaching Zumba? No. It takes the fun of it for me. I could not teach it but would love to go every day. That is the distinction we help people make. Just because you love doing something does not mean you can make a career of it. I do not want to be a Zumba teacher ever. I just want to go to class.

There are subtle differences that we can’t cover today but they are the kind of things we help our clients with. We help them see what they bring to the table and package it the right way to be presented to organizations, or if they are starting their own business to their clients. Hopefully I answered that. If not ask more.

Scott Barlow: Here’s what I love about what you said. Though I think you acknowledged and I made fun of it. The question “what do I want” is a huge question and can’t be answered all at once. It is too big of a problem. You have to go one bite at a time.

I liked what you said at the beginning, start with what is easier, what you don’t like. Once you get that then you can break it down one bite at a time. That becomes more manageable because it’s easier to see what we don’t like. Most people can speak to that easily but they may not have thought about it in that way – “well I guess the only thing I really don’t like is just my boss. The rest is fine. How do I solve that problem?” Everything else is great. It may be causing so much havoc and pain because your boss is a big part of the job that you are looking at it instead as do I need to change careers? What should I do? They get lost. I really like that point.

The other thing that I enjoyed about what you said is separating out what I do that is giving value back or adding value to the world and what am I doing for fun? A lot of people feel like they love ducks, dogs, and fashion, sunglasses, and eating pancakes and want to know how do I take that and put it into a career. I don’t think you have to or should. You may want all those things in your life but you don’t have to go be the Zumba teacher. Maybe that doesn’t even make sense. Alyssa is a fitness instructor and she doesn’t make a lot of money through it but does it primarily because it is fun for her. Not because she is bringing in massive amounts of money. Even though she is being paid it’s really a hobby for her.

Gia: I just want to add one thing. The fact is it is easy to glamorize someone by just standing on the outside looking at them. We all do it.

Look at her, she is a massage therapist. She must make a lot of money it looks like fun. She has different schedules and meets different people. Or like Alyssa she gets to work out and have fun. We can easily glamorize other people especially if we think we may be interested in it.

It is important to gather data points. Do more research. I challenge my clients to go talk to five to ten instructors. I help them with a set of questions. If they want to be a massage therapist we come up with questions to ask massage therapists. It’s easy to stand on the outside and think you would like it. But can you do it day in and day out for the next five years? I help them assess that because even with the work we do it is easy for people to say I could easily do that, they have so much fun doing it. It’s easy to say that but you’ve got to talk to the people doing the work to see if it fits your values. It has to align to much more than the outward view.

Scott Barlow: That is ridiculously true. I was thinking about it through my view and believe it or not that is how we got into bringing other coaches on our team. I found that even though I love coaching, I have the most fun doing it, but when I have ten or fifteen clients it becomes less fun and I find I’m not as good for the people that I’m helping. At that time our business was growing and I wanted to spend more of the time adding value to the world and to me it made sense to bring on other people to support the people that need help. At that point in time we were turning people away. It limited me to a couple of clients. I wanted to focus on growing the business and help more people. Everything you said made me think about that.

Let’s answer a few specific questions we have from listeners and HTYC-ers and email list people. We have a whole bunch of questions but we’ve picked a few because they are typical questions we get. You game?

Gia: Absolutely

Scott Barlow: Here’s the first one. I’m going the read part of the email. When you are trying to figure out what you are trying to do and what makes sense it can be confusing and people don’t know how to ask the question.

This one is from Emily. I recently just lost my job due to company-wide cuts so I’m literally back to square one and I’m trying to figure out what I want to do with the added pressure of needing a paycheck. I’m struggling to find a career that fits and is fulfilling where I can give back to others. She says later that she is currently about half way done with a second semester of the MBA program at George Washington University because it teaches its business courses from an ethical business/social responsibility perspective. I’m skipping a few but she says she doesn’t know what a role in this field looks like for her.

She is in a place where she is trying to figure out what she wants to do and feels a massive pressure that it has to be figured out now because she needs the paycheck. What do you think about her situation? She is looking for thoughts? What should she be doing?

Gia: For Emily I would suggest there is some reason you took the MBA program. It’s like dating because something about them appealed to you. You had an idea about the program that initially appealed. I want you to go back and identify what you were thinking when you enrolled. What idea did she have and what did she want to get out of it. Get clear on that first. Second, she mentions something about social enterprise and says she doesn’t have a clear understanding.

We tell you to go gather data points and talk to people and get a further understanding about what they do and what their job looks like. Not many people actually do that. They don’t have all the right data points to make an informed decision. You need enough and good data points. We have to talk to people. It’s a blessing for her because she is in a university setting where she can talk to other students in the same boat and alumni. She can reach out to alumni and see what jobs and careers they are in. That is a starting point because she can understand the careers that alumni are in that she may not have awareness of. She can leverage that.

Scott Barlow: She has the one-two approach that she got laid off and is struggling to find a career that fits. I get the impression that she feels like she has to do everything now because she is also needing the paycheck. She has a time expiration.

Gia: I don’t know if she is full-time or working with her MBA, but I’ll approach it that she is trying to work at the same time. There seems to a whole world of thought of giving back to others. People glamorize giving back. Giving back can come in many forms. It doesn’t need to mean you are sacrificing your career or paycheck to give back. Emily can still leverage her skills. Let’s assume she has been in technology. She can use those same skills to find a job that is more fulfilling. Talking to or working with a career coach would be helpful because we can brainstorm ways to package the skills to fit her needs now. I always say the skills that we learned in one career or role are not necessarily constrained to that career or job. You can use them to suit other careers. Working with a coach would help her package the skills and identify the skills to find suitable jobs now.

Scott Barlow: You know what cracks me up, and I’m bias, but so many people think about when they get into a situation where they are laid off or lost their job or think they will lose their job that it isn’t time to invest in themselves. I have the opposite view and have been through it myself. I’ve done it both ways. The fear based mentality that “if I spend any money it will take away from my savings” versus “going into a situation where it doesn’t have a determinative outcome and know I need to set myself up for success.” Now having done it both ways I’m biased in that I feel like it is almost always the right decision to double down on yourself and set yourself up for success versus leaving it to chance. That isn’t how most people are thinking about it.

The other thing I like about what you said is she is in this place where she has a lot of resources because she is pursuing her masters. I wouldn’t recommend pursuing a masters without knowing why. But since you are already there you have a ton of resources: students and alumni. I would say spend the time to get clearer on whether it is a good thing and leads you were you want to go before continuing to go deeper, assuming there may be student loans, you’re paying a pretty penny, especially at George Washington. Make sure it’s leading you to something rather than just hoping it will. I think education is great when it leads to something rather than just entertainment. You have resources.

Anything else?

Gia: She should reach out to her professors. They have information and connections with organizations. They may have internship opportunities. She should leverage her network.

Scott Barlow: Emily, think about it as a couple step process. You need a paycheck now which is fine, but focus on improving your current situation to a job that is much closer aligned. Kind of like Gia’s background, she took side steps. If you take a sidestep you will learn more about yourself and improve your situation. That doesn’t mean that you have to stay there forever, it’s just another step closer to discovering what you really want and focusing your effort. That will allow you the flexibility to continue down the path to figuring out where your strengths and wants are. It depends on your time. That is another way to think about it.

Should we do one more?

Gia: Sure

Scott Barlow: This is from Stephanie. She is looking for thoughts. She graduated from OU, not sure which one, with a master’s in education. She currently works in international education and it sounds like she spends most of her time in front of the computer coordinating international programs. It’s lacking interaction with people. She said she started in the private sector and thinks it might be a better fit, maybe in HR, leadership development, etc. She thrives when she can help other people to cultivate their potential. She loves helping them identify a goal and giving them the tools to meet it. She likes to find better approaches for processes. She likes helping people acclimate to a new culture and she’s done this working with U.S. students in Japan. She wants to know how to get back in the private sector and find a good company that offers advancement. What are your thoughts?

Gia: I don’t know where to start. Love her profile and that she seems to be a self-aware person at least from that information. She knows this is what she loves doing and identified what she doesn’t like about her current job; she doesn’t get to interact with people.

Scott Barlow: It sounds like part of her enjoyment interacting with others is from development type of interaction. It’s almost a type of interaction. I don’t know if she has realized that. That particular type of interaction.

Gia: Again without knowing more about her background we can go with the assumption she is working at the university for a while. Again I want to see if we can leverage where she is at. I don’t want her to have to throw away the baby with the bathwater. She should look for opportunities in the university. The first challenge to her would be to see if she would be open to identifying opportunities where she is. I say this because she says she wants to move into the private sector but why not doing it in an academic setting. There are students she can help there. If she knows she likes that why does she want to go into private sector? I have a lot of questions.

Scott Barlow: I believe, and I’m making assumptions, she is perceiving the university and education sector as bogged down by bureaucracy and no innovation and isn’t enjoying it now, but that she liked the private sector. She wants to go back to things she perceived she enjoyed before. I may be wrong.

Gia: That makes sense. I’d ask Stephanie to take a step back and find what aspects she liked in the private sector. Did she work at multiple organizations or was it just one that worked well? There are a bunch of things she needs to identify. What aspects appealed to her? In her current environment she doesn’t like bureaucracy but it exists in the private sector too. What bothers her in her current environment? She has identified what she likes. Those opportunities exist in multiple organizations and forms. I want to understand who she would like to work with.

For example, we are career coaches. I like working with mid to senior level career professionals and navigating transitions and advancements. I’m specific about the people I want to work with. Do the same thing. You want to help people double up. You mention students. Your playground is right where you are. I want you to be clear on who you want to work with and get deeper into what you want to do. What do you mean by double-upping people? Do you want to be a school counselor? Dig deeper and identify jobs that could fit your interests.

Scott Barlow: This is awesome because I believe you are right. I think what you said is really taking and developing the context. She might be missing opportunities that are around her. Start with what is easy and build out from there. She mentioned she enjoys helping students and development. Who are those people that you most enjoy. It cracks me up a little because we as humans don’t want to choose. We want to help everyone. But really there are people you can help better than others and enjoy helping most. Those are the people that you should spend your time around because you can make a larger impact in their lives. I love what you said. It is so true. A lot of those clues are in the context.

Gia: Absolutely. I love how you rephrased it. Hopefully we are giving her thoughts to progress.

Scott Barlow: I think this is great. We answered your question in a really indirect way Stephanie. We encourage you to do what Gia says. Before you go running to the private sector identify where you want to spend time and with who. That will give you the clue of how and where to look. If it’s in the private sector it will help identity organizations. You can start reaching out to them.

I feel like we could keep going for hours but I know we need to end today. I appreciate you taking the time. This has been awesome and we’ll have to bring you back on for more questions. I appreciate it.

Gia: Thanks I will try to be more concise next time.

Scott Barlow: No, this is fantastic. If you are interested in more about Gia then you can reach out to her at gia@happentoyourcareer.com and go over and learn more at happentoyourcareer.com/167. That will get you to this episode, notes, and links and story behind Gia. Do that. Thank you Gia for taking the time and official public welcome to the team.

Gia: Thank you Scott, my pleasure.