513: Get The Raise You Deserve Without Leveraging Outside Job Offers

Justin 00:01

I can tell, you know, he was just waiting for me to hand in my resignation. And I could see the look of relief on his face when all I did was ask for a 20% raise.

Introduction 00:19

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here’s Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

Here's something you might have experienced before, you've decided it's time to ask for a raise. And even though you've prepared for this moment, and you know that you're more than deserving, you still have a pit in your stomach, your palms are sweaty, your throat feels like sandpaper, some anxiety has likely crept in and you over-thought this moment, way too much. Maybe that's you. Or maybe you're like most people. Most people, in fact, almost everybody never asks for a raise. And when they do, they ask in a way that doesn't allow their employer to say "yes, yeah, we would love to do that. In fact, we'd be silly not to do that for you." And the reason that most of us never do is because we're afraid of getting turned down. We're afraid of making things awkward, or even offending our boss. And then the ultimate fear is that, well, you'll walk back from your boss's office without a job, which by the way, almost never happens. Most high achievers have been in this situation a time or two. And it's never a super fun experience for almost all of us. But what if I told you that it could be? What if I told you it could be an amazing experience? What if I told you that it could completely change the dynamic of asking for a raise and even better the relationship with your boss and the other people that you work with? But if you could approach the situation with a lot fewer nerves, and the conversation could feel just like any other collaboration at work.

Justin 02:12

It's not really that you're being greedy, you're just asking for what you're worth. Because ultimately, you know, you're probably working at your job to make money. You know, hopefully, you like what you do at the same time. But, you know, hopefully, you're also getting paid what you're worth.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:30

That's Justin. He's an engineer who came to us for help when he really wanted to negotiate a raise with his company. But he was nervous about it, because he thought that in order to do that, he'd have to go out and get other offers from other companies in order to have leverage. And that felt disingenuous to him. He didn't want to transition out of his company, he actually really loved his company. But he had that fear in the back of his mind, like many people do. And if he approached his boss about a raise that, he would end up rocking the boat. Well, you'll hear how Justin realized that he was actually the one holding all of the chips in his negotiation, and how he set himself up confidently to go in and ask for an even larger raise than he initially thought he wanted. Okay, so here's Justin talking about the predicament that he was in, when he approached us at HTYC.

Justin 03:18

I've been with the company, I've worked there for almost 10 years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:24

Yeah.

Justin 03:25

And I've changed jobs twice before that, you know, so I worked somewhere for two years. And then I worked somewhere for about four years. And now I've been here for 10 years. And normally, those events where you have a large pay increase are, when you have two companies that are sort of fighting over you, you know, that's when you see these big 10, 20% pay increases. And after 10 years, I kind of felt like, "Hey," like, "this is really time for me to look into this, but I don't really want to change jobs. I'm pretty happy where I'm at." But I know, if I went and found another job, I might get a pay increase. And I had already done that once at my current job, about four years in, I essentially, like went to my boss and kind of with no coaching or anything like with my tail kind of between my legs, just kind of like, "I think have done a good job and I think I got like 2 or 3% raise on top of what I normally get", which was great. But it still wasn't really this big event where it was, oh, like you're changing jobs and it's a 20% raise or 30% or whatever. And I was contacted by a recruiter about another local job a few months before I contacted you guys. And we kind of went down the path of talking about the job and talking about the pay and the benefits and I guess for a little bit more backstory, like I have a pretty good pay and compensation package for where I live. Normally, recruiters will come talk to me, and then I'll tell them what it would take to get me to leave. And they're like, oh, we can't touch that. So it's not like I was underpaid going into this process. Just that, there are a whole lot of people in the area that do what I do. And I knew that I could probably make more if I had another job offer. So while talking to the recruiter, I was like, "Well, I'll go interview. I'll go down this route." But in the back of my head, I was like, "I don't really want this job." Like I really just want a job offer so I can go in and renegotiate with my current job. And that kind of led me down the path of all the things you think about, like is this the right way to do this? Like, are they gonna look at me differently? What if they just say, "Okay, thank you, we're not going to renegotiate." Then I have to say, "Oh, well, I was just kidding anyway."

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:08

April Fool's.

Justin 06:10

So that kind of prompted me to contact you guys, you know, and I think I kicked it off with just an email, because I listened to the podcast before. And it's like, "Hey, like, here's my situation, I have a recruiter that's talking to me, the job is interesting, I wouldn't be upset if I ended up doing it. You know, after 10 years, it'd be nice for a change. But at the same time, I'm pretty comfortable where I'm at, really, I just want a good reason to renegotiate." And then we kind of went through all the ways we can handle that and ended up not pursuing the recruiter more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:47

So let me ask you about that part. I think that's something, as I remember, some of the email exchanges you had with myself and our team, and one of the things that you were, I'll say, hesitant about is most of the time, with the exception of this one recruiter, most of the time, you had gotten the response of, "Wow, we can't even touch that." What you said earlier, right? And it seemed like that colored a little bit of whether or not this type of renegotiation was even possible. So tell me a little bit about how that went in your head? And what were some of your thoughts about that?

Justin 07:24

Yeah, well, it's interesting, because I work at a company that is pretty healthy financially. They could afford to pay me whatever they wanted to pay me, essentially. And so that's where I kind of came up with the thought of, okay, well, like, I wouldn't be hard to replace in this area, it wouldn't be impossible, but you'd certainly be kind of, it takes them a while to find somebody and also bring them up to speed with nearly decades experience and knowledge and everything. That's pretty valuable in any industry, especially in industry, like, where the turnaround seems to be a lot, you know, most tech jobs, I've looked at resumes, and people move around a lot. Two to three years, it's like max, people ever stay somewhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:20

You're like a dinosaur if you stay three and a half years.

Justin 08:22

Right, that's what it seems like. And which is crazy to me, because it seems like just the first year is just trying to figure out how the heck everything works. And then the second year is just trying to implement that. And then after that, you can finally start to really contribute. But my background is both hardware and software and, like, really, really low level, like firmware, which not a whole lot of people do all of those.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:51

Absolutely. It seems like there are a couple of elements here that created a lot of value for the organization. And I almost look at this every time we are helping someone negotiate in any situation, we're looking at, what are the value creators? Or what are the assets here? What are the things that the organization would not want to give up? And whether someone's just starting a new role or whether they've been in a role. In your case, I think what stood out to me, as we initially talked to you, was that you already had a great relationship with your boss and your boss's boss, and even your boss's boss's boss. And those were already in existence and solid– you already had a track record of performance. In your case, it was longer than most because you'd been with a company for a while. But you know, that's something else that has to be there for this to work. It's almost like a prerequisite for everything else to happen afterwards. And you did such a great job with those two pieces that I knew that for you it would be very possible to have these types of conversations that was lead to some of your goals with changing your salary without having to go and, as you said, you know, go get the other job.

Justin 10:09

Yeah, so my long term goal is to retire early. So hopefully, in six or eight years, I've saved enough money to just sort of draw what they call a 4% rule and live a life where I'm not sort of chained to my desk, and I can work if I want to work and not work if I don't want to work. But just being the, I'm sort of, probably a third of the way down this path, I've got a little bit of money saved up. And one of the terms that people use is "F-U money". So it's sort of the, and it's different for everybody. But you know, for me right now, I have enough money to where if they just fired me today, I could probably be okay for two or three years. And that's not really what I want to do. But having that sort of in my back pocket really helped feel, like, because I'm not fearful of losing my job. Like, if I lost my job, I know I would be okay, I know I would find another job. At some point, even if it took me a year, like, I would be financially okay. And that was really powerful. Because I feel like a lot of people sort of put a lot of weight on their job, and if they don't have good savings, then they take the wrong attitude, I guess, with their employer. And they're very thankful to have their employer there. And they're not really looking at it from the opposite end of, like, "My employer should be really thankful for having me."

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:43

It's hard to think about it that way for many people. But two things that you, maybe, three things actually, that you called out, I think are really almost critical in this type of situation. One thing that I can't agree with more that people don't really think about or spend a lot of time talking about is that if you have done a great job, saving any kind of emergency money, whether you call it F-U money or anything else, and you have any kind of cash that causes you to make different decisions. It causes you to take, well, I wouldn't even call what you, I mean there is some risk to what you did, no doubt. However, it causes you to be able to make different decisions and assess risk differently, which I think is something that because you had done such a great job of putting money away and taking care of yourself financially, it caused you to be able to make different types of decisions and look at things differently. But the other piece, too, is you did a really great job with being able to, how shall I put it, being able to taken otherwise great situation, and recognize that there is opportunity to do something different, and begin to even question that and having that mindset that you mentioned, where it's like, "Hey, they're lucky to have me in this case." I think that's really very, very helpful to begin to question what might happen differently. So nice job on one hand. And then two, I know we're gonna get in talks about, like, what actually happened, but I think those are two pieces that allowed everything else to happen that are undervalued when people look at this.

Justin 13:35

Yeah, like I said, probably about four or five years ago, I went in and asked for a raise. I mean, my heart was pounding, I was nervous. And this was much different. Because I was prepared for anything like if they were, you know, if I didn't get the response that I wanted, or if they just said, "You know what, we don't think you were doing as well as you thought you were doing. You're fired." I was prepared for any of that. And I guess removing the fear of failing was the really key in all this, just because it wasn't really the case where if I did fail then, well, I'd lose my house and my car and my kids wouldn't be able to go to college. And it would be a little setback. But I knew I was prepared and ready for anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:27

And this is so interesting, because I think that in most of these cases where we've worked with people and been on one end, or the other or in cases where I've gone and done this myself, or members of our team have gone and done this, and we're in the firsthand, you know, sitting in the chair, it's so rare that that is going to happen, what you just described about "Hey, I'm gonna go in and ask and they're just gonna say no. And on top of, no, they're going to remove opportunities from me like my job." Like that is something that just rarely happens. Then you'd have to really, really ask in an offensive way, or for something terrible to be going on at the organization at the same time or in your boss's life for it to result in that. It's just so unlikely. That's still possible. And that tiny little bit of possibility.

Justin 15:21

But people, those people who I've mentioned, I'm going to ask for a raise or whatever. "Oh, like, why would you ever try to rock the boat?" And just human psychology is interesting. Because if you're not prepared for that emergency, then it always feels like it is just a pending due.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:44

So that's really interesting. It sounds like as you're having conversations about that, you get some responses, like, "Oh, my goodness, why would you rock the boat?" Right? Did you get any other types of responses as you were talking with others about your plans to ask for a raise or renegotiate?

Justin 16:00

Yeah, I mean, I had kind of responses all over. I mean, I hadn't really spread the word a whole lot. But I mentioned it to another guy I worked with, and he was pretty confident I would get a raise, maybe not necessarily what I was asking for, which, we didn't really talk numbers exactly. But kinda like the first time I went in, he was like, "Yeah, you could probably get like another 2 or 3%, on top of what you normally get." Which is kind of the way to appease someone and make them go away, like, "Okay, here you go."

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:37

"Thanks for asking. Don't talk to me about it anymore."

Justin 16:39

Yeah. But it definitely was interesting to kind of evaluate how everybody looked at the job market, and how people respond to just trying to determine our market value like that was interesting to me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:58

So as you think back to the beginning of this process, what were some of the biggest questions that you had, or concerns that you had going into this process where you were trying to think about, like, "How do I even do this? How do I approach this." Especially in a different way than what you had done four or five years ago, where you got the paltry, you know, let me throw you a bone type raise 2 or 3%.

Justin 17:23

Right. I think the biggest struggle I had was trying to decide whether I should go have another job offer in hand or not. Because I felt like I was really good negotiator. But only if I was holding all the chips. And the only way I could picture myself as holding all the chips as if I had this other offer in my hand. And I was like, hey, look, like I can leave today and go bank this at this other company. It took a lot of coaching, as you know, for me to kind of realize, wait a minute, like, I'm already holding the chips, I just have to know how to use them. And I have to convince myself that I could go get this somewhere else, even without an offer in hand, which in the long run, I think works a lot better than if I actually were to get a job offer. Like, I feel like we did the right thing, just because we talked a lot about going into the negotiation as a partnership with your boss, and that was really beneficial. Because if I were to just run in and say, you know, "Look, this company down the street is going to pay me 15% more, give me more than that, or I'm going to leave." It's a very standoffish attitude that the both parties are taking. Your boss feels cornered and then you might get looked at differently. I don't know there's a lot that even though that's sort of the way the market normally handles it, it just didn't feel right to me. So I really liked the approach of going in and saying, "Look, here's what I could make. And you and I both know, I'm qualified for all these jobs. And here's what I want. So how can we make this happen together? So I don't have to go look for another job. And I don't have to come in here with a job offer to wave in your face and threaten you with." Like, I think everybody appreciated that approach more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:27

I think, as you're sharing, hey, here's some of the biggest questions that I had. One thing that stood out to me when we started interacting with you, and trying to understand some of your goals and what you might be asking for throughout the process of negotiating and increase would tie into your long term goals and the ways that you wanted to do it. The biggest thing that stood out to me is you're really uncomfortable with this idea that you mentioned of going and getting the job have only to negotiate an increase, like that seemed out of your normal integrity, like the way that you live everything the rest of your life like that was just like totally implicitly outside it. And that seemed like the only reason you were considering it is, is it what it felt like you had to do? Is that fair assessment?

Justin 20:17

Yep. I think it depends a lot on your organization. The last company I worked for, I definitely felt like, you know, they made any counter offers for me to stay. And then I ended up not staying, because I did feel like, "Hey, they're trying to get me to stay right now. But they're gonna push me out as soon as they can, or I'm going to be looked at differently." And I think it depends a lot on just the dynamics of the organization and how they treat people. I don't necessarily feel like that would be the case where I am right now, just because it's a bigger company and finances, and people are sort of more removed. At the previous company I was with was a smaller company. So if the CEO is agreeing to a raise, that's like, $1 out of his pocket, so it's more, they're more directly seeing the hit of finances on them personally.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:16

Justin, when you think about this process, and you think about the work that you did to be able to make this happen for yourself, and with this organization, what were some of the first things that you remember doing as we went through the process with you?

Justin 21:33

Well, the biggest thing was you being so convincing that I could go get another job somewhere else, and then going and looking and seeing what other jobs are available. You told me to spend like an hour, I probably spent like 10 or 12 hours, of course for a couple of weeks. But it was nice, because in the process of looking for other jobs, it's hard to find job postings that actually list salaries, right? And just by default, most of the jobs don't list a salary. But just the ones that did list the salary publicly, I was able to find a dozen jobs that paid significantly more than what I made now that we're remote. And also things that would be interesting for me to do. Maybe not necessarily you always take a gamble when you change companies, because you don't really know the health of the company and whether it's going to be around 10 years or two years or three years, which was what I was trying to avoid by not changing jobs. It's like, I know I'm at a job where I've been there almost a decade, I could be there for another decade easily if I wanted to, but just convincing myself that these jobs are out there, and I could go get them right now, that was really probably the biggest step. Because once I got that mindset, that, "Hey, like, I could go get one of these jobs today." That was kind of when the game changed. And then you kept pushing me, you know, because I think I came out with what I was going to ask for it. It was, you know, I think about 15% or so more than what I made and you kind of kept pushing me up. And I think we finally landed on about 20% more, because you kept kind of nudging me to say, "Hey, ask for more. Like you can get it." That was definitely eye opening, I guess.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:43

Was that an uncomfortable part of the process for you?

Justin 23:45

A little bit? Yeah. Because you want to ask for a number that doesn't seem crazy. And you want to ask a number that, you know, one, is beneficial to you. Because that's ultimately why you're asking for a raise is because this is how I'm compensated for the job I do. But two, you don't want to ask a number that's so high that they just kind of laugh at you and kind of dismiss it as whatever, like, that's impossible. But I think the way we kind of structured the task and the documentation and everything to go with it really helped kind of drive that home. But it definitely was, like, uncomfortable trying to decide what to ask for. Because it's easy when you have an offer in hand from another company. You say, "Hey look like they're offering me 10% more. You can either match that or you can go more like it's not really in your hands. You're just saying this is what I could get with his other job offer." Like not having that offer in my hands, like definitely made it uncomfortable.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:56

What helped you be able to move through the process, just for really helping bring everybody else into this process really quick. If we were divided this into steps– step one for you really was about let's figure out what your assets are. Right? And we talked a little bit about that earlier. But you have such a great relationship with everyone who has a vested interest with you there already, you have this track record of success. And on top of all of this, you have a variety of experiences and skill sets that just are a very unique combination. And I think lots of people have these, but don't necessarily realize it. But in your particular case, you acknowledge that, like you get sort of the software and hardware side and everything in between that makes it jive together. But then step two for you was really about, okay, what is the strategy for how we go about asking, and it really made sense for you to not involve other jobs in the process, because that was outside of your integrity and do so in a way that was very much inside of your integrity, and figure out what's the game plan and strategy for how we're going to do that. And I think you and I had decided that it would be a series of conversations where you approach it from, "Hey, I could go and do this, I could go and get another job. But I respect you too much to be able to make that, like go and do that and waste everybody's time when my goal is to stay here in the first place." Right?

Justin 26:24

Yeah, you know, it's the truth. That's basically just... it just boils down to figuring out how to word that in a way that gets their attention, that gets their attention the same way you having another job offer would anyway. Because, I'm trying to think the most powerful thing in this whole process was when we sort of decided what to do. So my steps to, kind of, backtrack a little bit, so I came up with a proposal for compensation. And then you kind of ripped it all up and said, "Hey, like, move this around and change this and do all this." And so after a few iterations of back and forth with you, we had a pretty decent multi page proposal in hand. And then the fact that I simply called my boss and said, "Hey, like I have something that's really, really important to me to talk to you about. And I'd like to do that in person sometime in the next three or four days. Do you have time on Thursday or Friday?" I think it was a Thursday, ultimately. But I called him on Monday. And I didn't tell him anything else. And then he didn't really pry, but setting the conversation up like that, I feel, like, was really powerful, because I feel like it flipped who was nervous.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:56

It did.

Justin 27:58

Right? Because normally I would go in and say, "Hey, can I, you know, I'd like a raise, and I'd done a really good job." And I'd be the one whose heart was pounding and who was nervous. And when I went in on Thursday and met with my boss, you know, I was slightly nervous leading into it, but not nearly as nervous as I was before. And I can tell he was just waiting for me to hand in my resignation. And I could see the look of relief on his face, when all I did was ask for a 20% raise, which was, like, amazing, because normally, you would say that they'd be like "20%? Like, whatever." But just for him to sort of sit back, and I know that he also talked to his boss, and they sort of already knew something was up. And we were meeting for an important reason. But for them to sit there and think, "Okay, well, like he's probably handing in his resignation, or he has another job offer for a few days." It kind of puts them in that mindset of, "Oh, like, this is what it really could be like if you didn't leave." And framing the conversation where I was not the nervous one, really like, I feel like that was probably the most important thing out of this whole process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:27

I think that's really interesting and powerful and without getting into every element of the psychology that we use with that particular strategy, which is not right for every single person under the sun. But I think it really, really was very effective here because it put them in that emotional state where they had to consider, one, that it's a possibility that something could be disrupted here and then they run through all the things in their mind about what that could be. Now the unfortunate part is, you don't really get to control any of the thoughts that go through their head. And in this case, that was actually helpful to the process, I would never recommend inflicting pain on people for manipulative purposes, but it allowed you to be transparent with what was going on here in all the ways that you could leading up to it while still being helpful to the process, both for them, and for you. Consequently, it also initiated them to start planning well, what could we do in the background without you even having to ask? So overall, I think it was really very, very good. The other thing is it did, that might not be obvious here, is it opens them up when you come and say, "Hey, I want to approach this as a partnership. I really want us to figure out together, like how we could make this possible, how could we get me towards this 20%? What would it take?" And asking those types of questions now, they're open to it in a completely different way than what they might have been, if you just showed up randomly on a normal Tuesday and said, "Hey, so, can talk to you about a raise? That'd be cool." Completely, completely different. Anything else that you think about this process for what worked really effectively for you, or what helped make it easier for you, that stood out for you?

Justin 31:19

Another one of the things was, it's going to be different for everybody. But for me, in particular, I could pretty easily trace back some ideas and things that we've implemented over the past few years, and actually put dollar figure on some of those not necessarily to say like, "Hey, like, look, I saved the company $1 million, therefore, I want you to pay me 900,000 of that." But for me to actually look at it and say like, "Whoa, like this idea actually did save the company a million dollars. And this other idea, saving the company and other $500,000." Like, it definitely made it easier for me to sort of convince me of my worth in the process. Because these were all ideas that I'm pretty confident if I wasn't working there that nobody else would have necessarily come up with them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:16

As I'm listening to you recount this story here, what's really standing out maybe even more than ever has before, even though this is something that, like me and my team have done a lot, is that most of what made this work on the side for your employer or on the side for you is about psychology, it's those things that got you to realize how much you were actually worth, it's those things that got your employer to be open to talking about this in a different way than they might have. It's all of those little psychological pieces rather than the proposal. And the proposal, you did a great job in the proposal. When we ended it, it was still like what I would say far from perfect, it was a really good proposal, but it's still far from perfect. We're going to spend, I don't know, 20 or 50 more hours on it to really get that tiny last little bits into perfection, right? But really, those didn't actually matter. It was much more about those other pieces of the process.

Justin 33:13

Yeah, and like you mentioned earlier, being able to word things in the sense that made my boss feel like we were going to work on this problem together, versus just saying "Give me this or I'm leaving. Saying, "Give me this raise, or I'm gonna leave." that puts everybody in a standoffish mode. And that's not really the best place for everybody to be at. But being able to worded as, "Look like, I'm qualified for all these other jobs. And I could go get them today. But I don't want to, like, I want to say here. Here's what I'd like to get paid in order for me to stop looking at all these other job offers and jobs that are available. And here's what I want, in order for me to continue with my career here and sort of stop focusing on other opportunities. And how can we make that happen together?" Like that was really powerful. Because it, like, you said earlier, like, it puts them in problem solving mode. And it sort of takes the threat away, which is you never want people to feel like they're cornered and they need to do this or else because that's just not a great way to approach anything in life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:35

It doesn't always feel very good either if you do. In the situations where I have done that in the past, and even if the result has been good, it doesn't feel good in the end.

Justin 34:46

Exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:47

Justin, as you think about this for someone else who's in a similar situation to you where they've got, you know, a pretty decent track record of performance and they have a great relationship with their boss or the other people who have a vested interest in their success, what advice would you give them, if they're interested in renegotiating their compensation, whether it be salary or anything else?

Justin 35:10

I think the biggest thing that you could really, that I took away from this process was knowing that you don't need another job offer to actually sort of have leverage, like leverage could be anything at any time. And even the word leverage is kind of used as a negative. I feel like at some times, it's not really that you're being greedy, you're just asking for what you're worth. Because ultimately, you're probably working at your job to make money. Hopefully, you like what you do at the same time. But hopefully, you're also getting paid what you're worth, because that's why people work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:00

Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided that they want to take action. And they've taken the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you've heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then I would invite you to do the same, let's figure out how we can help support you. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now, go to your email app, and I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just send me an email and put "Conversation" in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll make sure you get to the right person on our team, and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you in your situation. So open that up right now. Drop me an email, put "Conversation" in the subject line, scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:00

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 37:06

You start to think in a certain way where it's like, "Oh, I can't do that. I've only been doing this for 15 years, like I can't" or however many years it is, you know, "I don't have the skill set to go over here." Yet, when you really break it down or like, it's kind of been at the core of what you've been doing. Maybe not 100% exactly, but if you distill it down to those skill sets or those strengths, you're like, "Wow, it's been there the entire time."

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:28

So many of us assume that if we want to switch to more fulfilling work, that means that we need to switch companies or industries or we need to drastically change, we need to do a 180, we need to do something that is completely different. But it turns out that's not always the case. Sometimes the best path to career fulfillment can actually be found in your current organization.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:53

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.