505: Gaining Career Clarity Through Reflection With Briana Riley

Briana Riley 00:01

I was getting more clarity about myself. And then also realizing, "Oh, not everything is for me and that's okay. I can find something that is." And so that was really the biggest transformation as I learned how to say, "No, that's not for me."

Introduction 00:23

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:47

Let me tell you about an exercise that can be a wonderful kickstarter to building a more intentional life and career. It's going to sound super easy. But many people will spend months thinking through it, and deliberating on it. Okay, here it goes. First, I want you to reflect back on all of your career opportunities, roles, jobs, whatever. What's the one thing that you've always enjoyed in every single one of your roles?

Briana Riley 01:16

That's when I started developing this, like, deeper reflection habit of what's going on in my life because I was feeling not so connected. I was feeling very just, like, untethered, and I'm just kind of moving through space and time, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:32

That's Briana Riley. A career coach and strategist on the Happen To Your Career team. As a career coach, Bri has worked in the city of New York University, and was a senior manager of career services for galvanize. She has made a ton of career changes herself. Actually over a span of 10 plus years, she made the amount of changes that an average person might make in 40 years. Bri also graduated from Rutgers University and went on to receive a master's degree in social work. She's worked in industries and sectors ranging from environmental justice, policy advocacy, youth programming, workforce development, national parks, water quality, multiple universities, nonprofit tech, and even more. Thanks to this really broad range of experiences. Bri has a perspective that many other people don't. When she was feeling like she didn't know what the next right step was for her career, these experiences allowed her to really dig into that exercise I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, and reflect on what she enjoyed in all of her roles. She was also extremely detailed with this exercise and so much so that she built an entire practice around reflection, and actually uses it in her coaching today. She's amazing at helping people get unstuck, center themselves in their career decisions and celebrate their uniqueness. And more importantly, we're really excited to have her as a part of HTYC. I'm very excited for you to get to know Bri. Make sure that you listen when she's discussing that reflection practice that I mentioned, so that you can kick start building a much more intentional life and career for yourself. But here's Bri going all the way back to where it began.

Briana Riley 03:12

I was born and raised in South Jersey, a small town in South Jersey, right outside of Philadelphia, which is where I currently live. So I didn't move very far all the way around. And I grew up in a very, just middle class suburban lifestyle where you follow the script you're given. And I think that's what I did. I did what I was supposed to do. I did really well in school. I went off to college at Rutgers which is what a lot of people in New Jersey do, is to stay in New Jersey for school too. So I stayed in the home state, went to Rutgers and majored in environmental policy. And I think that because I was told to follow the script, I just did. And I did that really well. But it didn't quite... it wasn't the script that I maintained, I eventually throughout the script and created my own. I was majoring in environmental policy in college, because I knew that I cared deeply about the environment that we were in. I was very moved by the climate change issues that we're facing and things like that. And so I wanted to follow that interest that I held. And also it was one of those things where you spend so much time learning something, investing all of this energy into it. And in my head, I thought well, like, could it possibly change directions now? I have to just go with that direction. I've been putting energy into this one path. And so I thought that was what I have to do. That's what you're supposed to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:50

But it's what you're supposed to do, right? You just get one degree in one thing and you just keep doing that until your life ends, basically, right?

Briana Riley 04:59

Exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:00

Is that what we're supposed?

Briana Riley 05:01

Yeah. And so I allowed myself to accept that rule that society creates for us, right? And I pursued this opportunity and community development where I was working directly with communities, helping them to improve roadways, or build trails and parks and create spaces around them that they wanted to see for themselves. And, as a part of that work, I was realizing, again, oh, I like the interactions that I'm having with people. I like the conversations that I'm having with them and understanding where they're coming from and what their concerns are, and what their dreams for themselves are. I was really enjoying that part of the conversation. But I couldn't yet connect the dots as to what that meant. I just thought, this is great information that I can use. I wasn't thinking there's something in these one to one interactions that really makes me feel empowered, and is what brings a lot of joy to my life and to my work. I was still wasn't able to quite connect the dots there. I was just thinking, "Yeah, I guess I just really liked people's work. I guess I just really need to let you know, follow that, whatever it is" I want to focus more on people. And I think that's when I got the cue to start moving away from community development from this wider focus and start working on, that's where I made a shift to work on programs that are focused on helping people grow and develop. And that's where I started to get more into that kind of space.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:43

So tell me a little bit about how you were in that first role, you started to recognize this. How did you evolve to the next opportunity?

Briana Riley 06:54

So that's when I started to realize there's something there that maybe I need to tap into more, that's when I started reaching out more to my network to people around me to see what sorts of opportunities were there, you know, who knows of different kinds of work that I could maybe fit into, that I could maybe be a part of. And so that's when I started just asking for help. That's really the next step and was getting a lot of recommendations of, "Oh, you should check this out. You should look into this opportunity. Maybe you would like this kind of work."

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:39

Yeah. Do you remember an example of one of those situations where you were starting to reach out to your network and is there one that stands out for you? What happened during that situation?

Briana Riley 07:50

Yeah, I do. Actually, I was like, I reached out more so in a panic, almost knowing like a crisis was coming. I don't know if I can do this forever, you know that. And that's another, not that you should be looking for something to do forever, right. But I thought that that's what you had to do, is you had to make something forever. And so I reached out because I was feeling "Oh, no, like, I can't do this forever. I don't think this is for me." And so I remember talking to one of my friends and saying, "Hey, I'm feeling a little bit lost" like, opening up and telling them like, "I'm feeling a little bit off balance here. Something doesn't quite add up. Here's what I'm really enjoying. What have you seen? What have you heard?" And this was like other people that were doing slightly different kinds of work in the field. And so I started just asking them more questions about what they're doing and what they're up to, and how did they figure out where they're trying to go and ask them to send anything that they could my way. And so that was one of my closest friends that I went to college with, it's who I reached out to. And she was like, "Yeah, I mean, I also don't know 100% what I'm doing, where I'm going, or that I'm doing the right thing, but here's how I know that I'm happy. And here's what I see in you, and maybe you should try these things." And so that was one of the first times I had a really honest conversation with someone about uncertainty and the fact that there will be that uncertainty and starting to come to terms with, "was that okay?" And of course, like now, I think of course it's okay, of course there's some uncertainty. And it's where I started to see even more like intentionally seek out what others saw in me, because that was helping me to gain the perspective I needed. Sometimes I was too, kind of, focused on like, I'm doing this work and that was it. I couldn't see the bigger picture. And so that's kind of the help that I was asking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:56

I think that what you just mentioned, seeking out what others see in you. I've noticed that a lot of times there is, I don't want to call it a resistance. I don't think that's quite the word I'm looking for. But there's definitely a predisposition for some reason or another that we think that we either don't need to do that, or we have apprehensions about that– we, as in like society. And what I think you and I have both seen and working with clients and working in coaching is that, that is so helpful to validate what are actually the most valuable pieces that we bring to the table as individuals, not just in career but in life. And so here's my question for you. The first question is, why do you think that that is so difficult for us sometimes to go and seek out those types of pieces or the seek out perspective about ourselves?

Briana Riley 10:58

That is a great question. I think there's this fear that we all have that asking for help in that way, asking for that perspective, is somehow admitting some sort of failures, somehow admitting that we don't have it all together. And in this society, there's that push to just, "you graduate college you know" you're always...

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:25

You know, you're good forever, right?

Briana Riley 11:27

Good. There's no more development after that, right? Like, you're on the right track. And so I think, especially, I think this gets even harder as you get further and further into your career, that reaching out, there's some sort of, you have to let go some control a little bit, right, you have to kind of admit that there's pieces of it that you don't have together and people are going to share the truth with you, and then you're going to have to see it. And I think people are always worried that that will somehow mean something negative about themselves. And I think there's just this bigger issue of just asking for help is hard, right? Reaching out to people and relying on people is a difficult thing to do. Because we all want to be independently successful. That's, of course, we want to feel that we've earned what we've accomplished so far in life. And so I think that reaching out to people and telling them, "Hey, there's something here that I'm missing is a huge leap of faith." And what people don't see on the other side is that they're going to share some things, like what I found in reaching out to a friend, is that they actually shared some things from my personal life, the strengths I bring into my personal life that I hadn't been able to yet marry over to my professional life. And that was something that was really eye opening to me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:57

Do you remember what those were at the time by any chance?

Briana Riley 13:00

Yeah, it was actually that, in my personal life, I was a bit more assertive and a bit more opinionated, and I wanted to share that with people. I wanted to create space to make sure that my ideas were heard. In my professional life, I was more reserved, I was more listening, I was just waiting, because I didn't value yet what I had to say in that space, and it made me realize that there's room to bring both of those– the listening skills and the sharing together. And people miss the opportunity to connect those two pieces of themselves, which has made me feel way more whole.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:40

Yeah, I know we talked quite a bit on this podcast, this show about the concept of having to be a different person that work for some people and how that feels very disconnected at best. And then at worst, can erode confidence and you can lose a sense of who you are as a person. So I think that that is an incredibly important topic. Actually, we'll probably do a few more entire episodes just on that topic alone. But what I wanted to ask you about is, as you started to get to know yourself as a person, you were having some of these types of conversations with people that you knew or other people, and how did that impact your next step as you're getting to learn more about what your strengths are, as you're getting to learn more about what you felt was good for you in your work, how did that impact your next step? What happened from there?

Briana Riley 14:37

So at that point, I realized... I collected this feedback. I wasn't yet fully... I still was not yet fully there at that one to one people work. I still couldn't quite connect the dots. So you're noticing a pattern here probably. But at that point, I didn't know that it helps me to zero in a little bit more on what I thought I was looking for next, what my heart and my head was telling me. It helps me to get a little bit more focus and a little bit more clarity. And that's when I finally realized, "Oh, I actually can say 'no' to some of these opportunities. Or, I don't have to be open to anything and everything." And that was really what I got from those conversations. I was getting more clarity about myself, and then also realizing, "Oh, like, not everything is for me. And that's okay. I can find something that is." And so that was really the biggest transformation is. I learned how to say, "no, that's not for me" and reached out to connect to the next opportunity.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:54

Do you remember anything that you said 'no' to at the time? Is there any of those that comes back to you or stands out?

Briana Riley 16:02

Yeah. I did. For a very brief time I worked at an organization that does policy advocacy, and I just figured that's probably the next step. Because I'm working with communities, and we're having all these issues, navigating all these different policies, I should work on the other side to help change the policies. So then that helps people. And when I got there, I was like, this immediately is not... It was a step in the wrong direction. Because it actually took me further away from the people that I wanted to work closely with. And so I immediately just, like, I paused and I said, "Actually, I'm going to not pursue this opportunity. I'm going to walk away. I'm going to find something else that brings me closer to actually having relationships with people that I want to support."

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:59

That is super cool. And it also, I think, begs the question for me of, do you feel like you needed to have that experience in one way or another? Or do you feel like you could have had many of the same realizations without that experience? Tell me a little bit about how you think about that now. I know, it's years later and stuff, but...

Briana Riley 17:19

Yeah, I think that, at the time, I was still jumping from whatever just popped up, and I thought, "Oh, that's it." And would move very quickly. I didn't take a lot of time to process it and reflect on it, which I would do now. And so I think that for me, at that time in my life, I had to have that like a little trial period. I had to, like, test it out a little bi. I had to have that to start having those feelings of, "this is uncomfortable", I had to see the other side of what I don't like, right, because up until that point in my career, there had always been the little threads of like pieces of the work that I really enjoy. And so it was really eye opening for me to experience something where I'm not getting anything out of it. It was really important for me to see, "Okay, what happens if I do take this route where it's part of what I'm supposed to do?" And that experience made me even more certain in the direction that I wanted to take longer term.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:31

That is super fun. And I know that on this show we talked a lot about experiments and the benefit of doing experiments. But really, the benefit is the same as what you're describing. Sometimes those don't work out. Sometimes, it is not a great experience. And that's actually really valuable feedback in the scope of things, too. So that's amazing that you did that. What did that leave you to for the next step?

Briana Riley 18:58

So yeah, so that's where I started working more with, like, really dive more deeply into workforce development, where I was supporting a team, and that team was working with the participants that were being directly served.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:19

How would you describe workforce development? I've actually been in a very brief stint in workforce development for a while and then served as a chair. So I feel like I have a good understanding. But I found that nobody understands what that is. How would you describe to people what workforce development is?

Briana Riley 19:35

So I like to describe it as a bit of a bridge. For people, it's building a bridge that helps connect people from where they currently are, to where they could potentially go. And it kind of maps out where their end destination is. It very, kind of clearly tells them, "these are your options. There's option A, B, and C" and workforce development is creating that bridge that helps people build the skills they need to enter either option A, B, or C. And so that's how I kind of think of it and describe it to people. It's that what's missing, and how can we fill those gaps to get you where you're trying to go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:22

Very cool. So then, as you were getting into that, tell me more about what your role look like and what you connected with, and also, what you didn't connect with as much.

Briana Riley 20:34

So my role, I was supporting the team of people that were working directly with the participants of the program. And so my role was more on the, like, administrative side– I was making sure that all the equipment was ordered, I was making sure all the any, like, organizational changes were communicated out to everyone, I was making sure that the schedule was planned, things like that. I would also be able to hold trainings for people and, you know, have one on one meetings with all the people on my team and, you know, do a whole onboarding experience with all the participants in the program. And I mostly enjoyed those little informal conversations that I had with some of the participants going through the program, about some of the different challenges that they're facing, you know, in the day to day, and helping them figure out how to navigate those challenges and how to overcome and what resources and what support they had around them, helping them to realize that. And the pieces that didn't resonate as much were the more administrative pieces where I was just like, in a spreadsheet, basically, all day. I'm sure everyone can relate, right, to just being on staring at a computer screen all day. I mostly enjoyed the conversations I had with people in that work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:58

Well, I'm starting to get a sense of why eventually you moved towards coaching more and more and more. It's all making sense, right? And I think that, for me, one of the things that stands out about your story so far is that there are all of these little threads that you kept paying attention to. And I think that it's easy for you and I to sit here and say that you were paying attention to those, and you kept moving more and more. And I fully understand that that was at different levels. At first, it was like, "Well, hey, I think maybe there's something here. Let's dive further into that." And then it became slowly, as years went on, more and more intentional. My question is, what advice would you give to folks that are observing, you know, similar threads in one way or another, how might they pay attention to those in a different way than what they are currently? Or how do might they use those as they're thinking about a transition in one way or another, whether it's career or otherwise?

Briana Riley 23:03

Yeah, that is tricky, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:08

It's kind of like, "it's the question". Right?

Briana Riley 23:11

It is the question. I think that it's easier for us to ignore those little threads, we just think, "Oh, well, that's just work, or that's just, you know, we can write it off so easily as being something else." I, for me, what really worked was starting to just keep track of something somewhere, so I started, like, different forms of journaling. I would write some things down, I would do like a sentence a day. And then I was doing little voice notes to myself of, like, "what did I like about this day?" And I would kind of listen back to it. That's when I started developing this deeper reflection habit of what's going on in my life because I was feeling not so connected. I'm feeling very just untethered. And I'm just kind of moving through space and time, right. And so what I think for people that are feeling like maybe there's something but they're not quite sure is really just trying to reflect each day like, what did you enjoy about the day? And what did you not enjoy? And just keeping track of those trends, or having scheduled conversations with someone where they can share a little bit about that so they can start building that practice of looking internally and checking in with themselves. It wasn't until I was able to really, like, meaningfully check in with myself quite regularly that I could actually see it for the important pattern that it was. Until then, it was just kind of like, "Oh, yeah, this is something that is maybe a byproduct of working but I'm not quite sure, right." So you have to get yourself to just see it from a different perspective. And if you're looking at your past self, it's way easier to notice a trend than it is to be looking today and think, "you know, what's the next step going to look like", it's way easier to analyze your old self and see that change over time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:12

I think a couple things that you mentioned, I just want to spend a moment on because I think they're so critical is probably the term I would use, especially as it relates to building a more intentional life and career. And you mentioned the idea of reflection. And you gave us some ideas of how you were doing that functionally, like you were leaving the voice, you're creating the voice notes for yourself, and then playing those back at a later time period, and that was helping you reflect and also you were journaling, and you were literally writing down "what did I enjoy about this day, what did I not enjoy about this day." But you also mentioned the idea of building a practice around reflection. And I think that's a really important because it allows you to be able to see, not just what, I don't know, maybe on a day, you were particularly tired or something along those lines, and didn't have that great of a day overall, where many things that that might normally be good, or just okay, might make those, "I don't like this list" on that particular day, but where if you've built a practice of reflection, then you can observe those trends over time, over many days. And then the commonalities that show up are so much easier to pull out. And it sounds like that's part of what you're talking about when you're mentioning that practice of reflection. So two things. One, I would say that that's been really helpful to me and many of our clients too. I'll just share essentially, throughout a couple of ways that you're doing that, I'll share a couple of ways that have worked for me, in addition to that. One, we have this tool that we use with clients, I think I've mentioned it many times on the podcast, the Ideal Career Profile, but my personal version of the ideal career profile started long before this organization. And what I've done is I've kept, I used to just make changes on there as what I wanted and what I needed evolved. But some years ago, I started actually just like crossing it out, and then putting what the new thing was or how it evolved or how I've refined it or whatever, so that I can see those trends and changes over time. But that same concept of carried to other places, too. And sometimes that's shown up on a, like, I have many Google Docs from over the years, where it's just like, "What do I no longer want to be doing?" And then there's like a list that it just add to it day after day, or what are the pieces that I am just having so much fun with, and there's a separate list there. But I think that when you build that over time, like you're talking about into a practice, then it's so much easier to do something with that information, because it's really difficult to be able to be like in our head is, like, "Ah, today sucked. I need to get a new job or whatever." Like all the things that we tell ourselves. So what have you found for yourself in order to make that building a practice easier?

Briana Riley 28:06

I think that it has to be simple, right? I think that it's super easy to, you go online, you look things up, and you're getting so much information, all of one. And a lot of it is super complex or very involved, and you're like, "I want to be just like that, that's where I want to be immediately" right? And almost always starting too complex is what causes people to kind of fall off of it, right? You set these, like, big goals for yourself, if you don't have something that's achievable, you're not going to be able to make your progress towards it. And so the big thing is doing something that is within reach, right? Working with the time that you have. If you're not a big writer, try not to be writing. But if you're someone who, if you don't like to think about, I don't know, work too late before you go to bed, make sure you're carving that time out right after work or sometime before or after dinner so that there's that time that mental break that you can carve into. So it's really learning to meet yourself where you already are and not trying to be this other version of yourself that you hope to work towards in the future. I think that's the biggest piece there around building and practice is making it for you not trying to fit it into something else that's worked for someone else.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:28

One of the things that I have really enjoyed about all my interactions with you is you've made a lot of changes, I would say. You've made the amount of changes that someone might make in a 40 year period, over 10 years. And so I think that's given you such a perspective, but also a large set of experiences very, very fast. And I think, honestly, when I think about you and your experiences that makes you a better coach. And so the thing I wanted to ask you about that, at this point is, why do you keep coming back to coaching? I understand that there's the threads here and the pieces that line up. But why do you do coaching these days? What's keeping you engaged? What do you love about it?

Briana Riley 30:19

People carry a lot of preconceived ideas and schemas about what how the world works, and what we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to be. And I love this work, because we get to really question if that's working for us, and recreate it in our own image, in our own vision for what things can be. And I love that co-creation with people. I love when people realize in themselves that they do have what they need, they do have the pieces of it to begin making the story that they think is just this long distant dream, or maybe in another life. I like creating that with another person and having them see, "Well, there's this other way of living. And it doesn't have to be just what I was told. I can create something else." And so, that's what keeps me really coming back to this work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:22

What's one of your favorite examples of where you've gotten to co-create something with someone else? Tell me a little bit about that situation.

Briana Riley 31:31

Yeah, I was just talking to a friend, but also someone that I used to coach in the past, but now we're just great friends. And in the past, he was feeling that there was just... he had no control. He works in higher education, he felt that there was just not really any control that he had over the direction that things would take. And he just kind of had to jump at the opportunities that came to him as opposed to trying to create the opportunities he wanted to see. And we had some conversations, we had some difficult conversations, because of course, it's not a linear path. There was a lot of discussion and back and forth on it. And we got to a place where we sat down together, and we imagined what would his ideal work environment look like. And what kinds of support would he have? And what kinds of freedoms would he have? And we created this. And then I encouraged him to submit it to his supervisor. And instead of shooting him down, they made the role for him. And that was his next career move. And I love that whole experience because of how excited he was to see that, like, he could contribute something and it could be valued on that other end. And also, I love that experience because it wasn't easy. It wasn't, like, I just said, "Hey, maybe try this." It was a lot of back and forth, it was a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of pushback, and being able to get from that place to this other side of, "Wow, like someone actually cares what I have to say", that was really such an amazing experience.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:22

That's phenomenal. I love that story. It's also one that... It is, what's the word I'm looking for… I see that same type of story over and over and over again, where we've been able to help someone in a similar situation, define what it is that they want. And whether that's in a role or another area of their life, and then turn that into a reality. But it's still, to this day, many, many years later, it's still, like, really makes me happy that we live in a world where something like that is possible. Yes. It's incredibly difficult, just like you said. And by no means, it's not easy for so many different reasons. It's not just like you sit down and make a list and take it to somebody at some place. And they just make it for you. It is way more complex. And many times it's spread out over many, many, many months. But it's still like that we live in a world where a lot of times that is possible in a variety of different situations. I think that's so cool.

Briana Riley 34:26

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:34

Hey, something I want to let you know the seemingly impossible career change stories that you hear on the podcast are actually from people just like you who are listening to this podcast and decided to take action and have a conversation with our team. If you want to implement what you heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just take your phone right now. Open it up, go to your email clap and type me an email Scott@happentoyourcareer.com just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and support you in your situation. So open that up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line to Scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:29

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:34

I started thinking about and picturing the future and I couldn't picture anything. And that really scared me. And it scared me enough to say, "Okay, it's time to reach out because I don't have the picture anymore." And that's something I've never been able to not have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:55

Okay, what happens when you went through school, and then college, and then you sort of always knew what the next step would be. But now, you're at a point in your career when you can't see the next step anymore. And it turns into a special kind of torture. It can seem like a trivial thing, but it's actually a very real and jarring experience when you're used to knowing what is coming for you, what is the next step and always being able to imagine your future. Turns out, it's now up to you to figure out what to do next. But luckily, you're listening to the perfect podcast to help you figure that out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:32

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.