579: Career Change Advice for Lawyers Seeking More Fulfilling Work

K. Adam Bloom 00:01

The truth was that the process of litigation was just not interesting to me. It was tedious and boring, and you know, mostly what I found was that the clients who could pay were mostly not worthwhile, and the clients who were worthwhile couldn't pay. And so if you want to have those two sides of feeling like your work is satisfying and having a comfortable standard of living within the legal profession, it's very, very hard.

Introduction 00:30

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:55

Becoming a lawyer can seem like a dream job– one of the high status ones that we look to when we're younger, like a doctor, engineer, astronaut, architect, hot dog eating competitor, just me? No. Okay. But lawyers definitely make that list. These careers are sold to us as a destination to success. Once you achieve it, you've made it. So why is it that we work with so many lawyers here at Happen To Your Career who want out of being an attorney? It turns out careers are never one size fits all. Something that is great for one person won't be great for the next. Many lawyers get to a point in their career where they feel like they need to make a change, whether it's burnout, stress, boredom, a values misalignment, a shift in priorities, they get to the point where they're interested in doing something else, something that fits them and their life so much better. Here's the funny thing, though, we found that there are a variety of fields that can be really challenging to leave. Teaching is one of those. And as it turns out, being a lawyer, being an attorney, is also on that list, not because there's nothing else out there for lawyers, but because the decision to leave alone can be a huge obstacle. Turns out, many different types of psychological, we'll call them psychological impositions, in the form of fears can hold them back. This shows up in so many different ways. For example, sunk cost fallacy. This is the fear that if I make a change I'll feel like I've wasted all the years of education, training and experience, and as it turns out, like there's a lot going to law school. My sister is an attorney. A lot of my friends are attorneys or have been attorneys. You've got undergrad, you've got the LSATs, you got law school at the bar, all the things, all of the education and intensity required to become a lawyer, generally takes seven years, sometimes longer. What about the comfort zone? Well, fear of uncertainty shows up as a risk. It's hard to justify leaving the comfort zone of a secure and well paying job, let alone a secure and well paying career, or what people perceive as a secure and well paying career. Here's another one, though. What about wasting all of those skills and experience? This shows up as that fear that my skills are not going to transfer to a new field. Here's some good news, though, because what we found is that all of these fears are totally bogus. They feel real, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are actually real. For example, the skills developed in a legal career– analytical thinking, being able to research right, negotiation, attention to detail, all of those things are incredibly transferable. What about the knowledge of the law itself? Oh, my goodness, that is something that almost acts like an umbrella over nearly any other profession that makes it more valuable. The years you've put into your law career are not wasted, and you can find another secure job, maybe even one that pays more. It is possible, but don't just take our word for it. On this episode, we're going to share stories of four attorneys, all from various different situations, who we got to work with when each of them were looking for help in their career changes, specifically, Jenna, Adam, Rebecca and Rob. Each of them shared their thoughts with us about figuring out that law, or at least the track they were on in law, was not the right fit for them. You're gonna hear how they finally reached the tipping point of making a change, their tips and their tools for enacting change and advice for making it happen. But to make this interesting, we're going to share each of their stories, but phrase it up with one of the big reasons why people are looking to leave the profession of law.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:52

Reason number one, burnout. I want you to meet Jenna. She had been a criminal prosecutor since graduating from Law School, and she actually loved it until she didn't. In the beginning of her career, she pictured herself prosecuting criminals until she retired. However, I want you to fast forward a few years. Jenna started a family, and not long after, began feeling burned out trying to juggle her demanding career with being a mom at the same time. Her priorities had shifted and the things she had once valued in her job just didn't seem as important. I'm gonna let her share a little bit more about that, though. I asked her the question, what led up to her saying, "I need to make a change"?

Jenna Murphy 05:33

Becoming a mom, getting married, yes, having two babies. I have a four year old. He just turned four in June, and I have a little over two and a half years old. He'll be three in January. And that, always, I guess, somewhere new inside of me that would change me. I just didn't realize how much it was going to change me. And it was those times that just really bothered me that I had spent, you know, I tried to be good to them and put them to bed and do all the things. But then many have not sat on my couch prepping for a trial that my husband sat beside me and didn't get any attention because I was working only to stand in front of a jury and a jury be like, "Yeah, whatever." And then my kids had a Thanksgiving program at school, at daycare. And I can remember being in court almost running to my car to get back to daycare or to get to daycare to be there to watch them. My mom and my dad had come from where they live. My husband was there. And so, of course, I rushed in and I watched this program. Thankfully, I didn't miss any of it, and but then I watched the clock the entire time I was there and then rushed back to go back to court, and I think that was probably the straw that really broke the camel's back, for lack of better explanation, was that I just knew at that point that I couldn't juggle both things. I realized in that moment that the setup of being a prosecutor wasn't going to give me... it wasn't about being able to work from home or asking for those leniencies, it was the fact that Judge set the schedule and that then we had to consult that before we could do anything. And I understand, that's part of it, but there becomes a point in life where you have to decide, "Can I continue in this path? Or do I have to decide that it's time for me to be some and do something different?

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:27

On top of her job, not being flexible enough for her young family, the pressures of her job started harming her mental health.

Jenna Murphy 07:34

By that point, the burnout was so bad that my therapist looked at me at one point and she's like, "I know you don't want to take meds anymore, but I need you to go back on some type of medication because you are worrying me", not that I don't take that and I was going to hurt myself, but she could just see the physical change in me that I was depressed. I didn't want to get out of bed. I was doing what was minimally required of me to be a mom and I wasn't in a good place.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:02

Jenna was able to make a change to a remote role as an Associate General Counsel, doing the type of work that she really enjoyed. But it didn't stop there. Not only did she get to spend much more time with her family, but additionally, she was able to make other changes, and now is Vice President of Strategy and Development, working for a legal firm, still able to use her experience, still able to utilize many of the skills she developed, and in a completely different fashion. Very cool, right? So here's her advice for others wanting to make a change.

Jenna Murphy 08:39

I would give them permission– it's okay. Because I wallowed with that. I felt guilty for the longest time. There are probably people who still don't know the process that I went through, the links that I went through to make this career change happen. I was scared in that process that it would be detrimental to the job that I really needed because I have a husband and two children and really needed to stay in that place. You know, I didn't need to be unemployed before I was employed somewhere else, thankful for the opportunity that I had, but I would give them permission to go after that. But the other thing is make sure that you define what it is that you want, don't settle because there were times where I probably would have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:25

Let's talk about reason number two, mental health struggles. I mentioned this for Jenna. However, it tends to be a common reason people are interested in changing from not just an attorney, but especially an attorney and law profession. The stress and emotional drain of work can have a detrimental impact on mental health. In fact, the Journal of Addiction Medicine published a detailed study finding that lawyers suffer from higher rates of depression, anxiety and substance abuse disorders compared to almost every other profession. If you didn't know that, this is not good news, but it's for some of the reasons that we talked about earlier. So let's talk about how to deal with that. I want you to meet Rebecca. Rebecca was a lawyer. She was working in the political arena in Washington, DC, but decided she needed a career change when the pressures of her job began causing health issues. Here's Rebecca explaining.

Rebecca 10:19

When you're in this zone, or when you're doing this, especially if you've had a lot of time and energy vested into it, and there are a lot of things, not usually black and white, it's not like a voice from God comes down, unless you just... There's lucky people, right, that keeping burning bush. You're like, "Oh yeah, there's the burning bush. Cool. I got my instructions. Let's grow." For me, I don't remember who told me this or where I read this, but it's like the little things, you start feeling a little itch. And you say, "Maybe, am I crazy?" And so you think, "Yeah, you know, everything else is going on. Let's just keep going with this. Or maybe it's just me, maybe, like I did that for a while, or I thought, okay, I'm not handling this correctly. I need to go running. I need to make sure I'm getting my energy out. I need to make sure I'm following up on where I've made mistakes and try not to do those again. I need to be like accountable. I need to, you know, you try to fix all the other things." But there was a moment for me, I think, I don't know, I would say for other listeners, if there's a moment where you know something's really off, whether it's like that moment where you snap at someone you didn't realize you didn't mean to and they went way beyond what you normally are, you think this is not where I'm supposed to be. Something's wrong. I would say, listen to that. I think my moment was, this was a long time before I made my move out of DC, but at the moment, I went into the dentist's office, they did an x ray of my molars, and the nerves just looked like scrambled eggs. I'm not out of my 20s, and they said, "Look, you are clenching your teeth so hard at night from stress that you have messed up your nerve endings. And if you keep going like this, you're going to need root canals for all four teeth by the time you're 30." And it kind of made me sit down and say, "something's wrong, something's really wrong." And I kind of try to, like, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, right? Keep going, keep going. You can do it. Just keep focused. Everyone goes and runs into issues like this. And then eventually something starts to get and say, "You know, maybe something is off."

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:25

Rebecca thought that she needed to get out of law to be happy, but realized the environment that she was in was actually what was making her situation so miserable. So she moved across the country, found a job that she actually enjoys in California. Here's her advice for other lawyers who are thinking about making a change,

Rebecca 12:44

Talk to somebody who... Reach out to someone, talk to friends, say "Hey, do you want me to do this sort of thing? I think it's interesting." And maybe meet up for coffee because a five minute conversation, because people are busy, right, like, if it lasts for an hour, great, if it lasts for five minutes, great, saying, "Hi. I think what you do is amazing. I'm really curious what do you in your job?" I would say, it's worth it. It's no pressure. And if it works out, that's how most people find their jobs anyways. And if you're in that moment and thinking, "Okay, there's nothing, geez, I'm so entrenched to where I am", like, moving to a different opportunity is kind of a joke. I would say you're probably wrong, unless you're in an extremely niche field, because skills are transferable, and it's worth saying, trying the boot camp stuff, maybe doing a StrengthFinders analysis, doing something just to get a different perspective. And ultimately, like, if people are telling you, "you've got the dream", but something doesn't feel right, that's fine. That's fine. Trust that. And if people are angry, they'll come around, especially if you're like, you know this wrong, you're going to make yourself happy, it's going to make everyone else happy, right? Like, do the right thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:03

Let's talk about a totally different reason why many are not interested in continuing on in law. They get bored and can perceive being a lawyer as mindless and boring. And here's the thing, like, you probably got into law to help people, and if you feel like you're not doing that, or you don't feel like your work has enough of an impact, like you're bogged down by billing and meetings and contracts, or you just feel like a problem fixer and can't see that impact, or you can't be creative, well then, as it turns out, that's not going to be a good thing for you forever. I want you to meet Adam. Adam Bloom did not want to be a lawyer from almost day one. It didn't feel meaningful to him. He didn't feel like he was making the impact that he thought he would, and most of all, he was bored. Since he was a lawyer for many years, he went in thinking like he was going to be doing all of this meaningful work, helping people in a really wonderful way that only the legal profession can but he ended up doing the same thing over and over again, and that created this boredom for him, and the boredom made it feel like there wasn't much of an impact there. Here's him sharing this realization.

K. Adam Bloom 15:16

I remember when I did orientation my first year of law school was at University of Arizona, and then I transferred to UCLA, where I graduated. But there was a speaker at orientation in Arizona who gave this very impassioned speech about how being a lawyer was like being a samurai. And he said that one of his favorite feelings was to walk into a courtroom and know that everyone in the courtroom was against him. And he said, and you take out your sword, and you just wade in and you're just going to go and fight and come out with having persuaded everybody to be on your side. And I'd worked in politics, and I kind of, I liked the idea of law as almost a fighting style where it's like, I don't want to get in a fight with fists or knives or guns. I want to get in a fight with words and ideas. That's the kind of battle that I want to have, and that's what I want to do with my career. And I want to find so I kind of felt like Ronan. I was the wandering samurai. I was looking for the fight that was worth having. I can talk, I can write, I can think, I can strategize. Who can I do this for that would feel satisfying? Would it be worth my time? And I swear to you, in 12 years, I don't think I ever found it. And the truth was that the process of litigation was just not interesting to me. It was tedious and boring. And you know, mostly what I found was that the clients who could pay were mostly not worthwhile, and the clients who were worthwhile couldn't pay. And so if you want to have those two sides of feeling like your work is satisfying and having a comfortable standard of living within the legal profession, it's very, very hard.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:46

Adam realized he was in the wrong profession and referred to his time in law as career jail. But here's more of what he had to say about that.

K. Adam Bloom 16:55

I just never found a home in the legal profession that felt like that combination of the things that you talk about that you and I have spoken about at length, people who share your values, people who treat you in a way that you want to be treated, that you enjoy working with, you enjoy personally, at least to some degree, so that you can spend a lot of time around them and work that feels meaningful and feels like a fit and also allows you to support yourself in a lifestyle that meets your needs and your wants, frankly, and I just never found that combination of factors in legal profession. And it increasingly felt ridiculous where, as a lawyer, you're working insanely hard on very complicated issues and making just a lot less money than people who are working much less hard on less complicated things that look like a lot more fun. And at some point, I think for me, I woke up and I said, "I don't want to be the lawyer. I want to be the client. I'm tired of helping other people with their stupid ideas. I want to work on my stupid ideas."

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:52

When we got to work with Adam, we got to work with him as a client. But then, as he was beginning to run some of his own experiments about where he thought he could find fulfilling work, we actually became a part of one of those experiments. Because at the time, we happened to be looking for some content creation to be done, and it just made sense, based on Adam's skill set, and he was going through some of the same things at the same time. So that's not every client that we work with, but it made it really fun to get to know Adam in a new and different way and just be part of that experimentation. And this allowed him to move to a content strategist role at Coinbase, and eventually he made another transition to a role that was even better fit for him as Chief Marketing Officer for a communications agency. Here's what he had to say about moving out of law.

K. Adam Bloom 18:45

I started the career change process, and they said, "What do you want to do?" I said, "I want to be a TV writer." That's where this started. And so, you know, I was not like, "I want to be a cryptocurrency content strategist." Not one of those words was anywhere in my mind as a career option when I started this process, it really requires a sort of, I would say, radical open mindedness. You just have to accept the fact that you don't necessarily know where this is going to go or how it's going to get there, and like the Animaniacs theme song, you have to expect the unexpected. Just lean into it. Just let it wash over you because it's an adventure. And, you know, it has ups and it has downs and it has setbacks. But if you just keep going, just stick with it and keep going, you will get there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:28

Okay, let's talk about this last reason. Reasons why people want to make a move from law. This one's particularly interesting. If you're feeling stuck, almost every time you feel stuck, that is, well, it's something that is going to cause your situation to feel even more painful. Now this shows up in so many different ways. If you've never found a role that truly fit you before, or you haven't ever done work that was enjoyable, then it might feel like it's impossible. So when you're a lawyer and moving through law school, one of the things my attorney friends and our clients have said over and over again is that you become really great at moving through large amounts of work and developing incredible persistence. So that shows up in continuing to be a lawyer too. Even if you haven't found a role that fits, you continue to persist believing that being an attorney is supposed to be the answer. And if you've put all this time in anyways, like we talked about earlier, and it's your only experience, then it might feel like you don't have a hope of doing anything different, which then leads us back to stuck. This is where I want you to meet Rob. Rob felt like he needed to find this one career that would be the perfect fit, I'm doing air quotes you can't see it, but thought that being a lawyer would be the answer. His realization was that it's okay to shift and not compare himself to others. Here's what he had to say about that.

Rob 21:05

I think for me, I will say, I had an impulse that it was very difficult to iron out what I was missing versus where I should be at this point in my career. Because if I took a look at peers and even folks closer to me, even personally, all I saw, perhaps due to my dysmorphic kind of view on it was achievement and satisfaction. I mean, I couldn't see anything specific to those instances that said struggle. I just saw, "Wow, everyone loves what they're doing and they're achieving and they're getting all of these external rewards from it, so they must be on the right path." I don't feel that way. What's wrong with me, you know? So I think it really led to an internal kind of first, a recognition. I think that the external stuff is important and cool, but for me, it ended up looking like, even if I get that stuff, I really need to be sure about the internal stuff, because it doesn't work the other way, at least for me, because in arguably, in some ways, I had kind of progressed in some ways, perhaps not relative to other folks, maybe not as meteoric, for sure, but there was some incremental and measurable achievement, but it wasn't satisfying on a personal level. Like it wasn't, or, I should say, wasn't as satisfying as I may have hoped previously. And so I think that really laid the groundwork for me to really figure out which is probably coinciding with what I happened upon Happen To Your Career is really kind of figuring that out. I mean, right down to the highly personal approach to, you know, what are the things that stick out from a strengths perspective? I mean, we talked a few moments ago about, you know, you may be good at something, but does that mean that you should really form an entire career around something that you might be good at, but will it really click internally for you as you kind of figure out and formulate that sense of in a way that's very amorphous, you know, who you are, certainly as a person, but also as a professional. So I think the work that Jennifer and I did on the strengths at least initially, was helpful and sort of put some things into context, but it also allowed for growth in ways that maybe didn't show up on a strengths analysis, right? It didn't really pigeonhole you into why you should absolutely do this stuff, because that's what the test said. You know, it's sort of putting some things into perspective and having a sense of, "Okay, yeah, that registers on a certain level. But what does that mean practically?" You know, is there some magic career track that will just change everything I'm going through? The answer is no. You know, it's kind of allowing yourself to not feel bad about wanting to change course and grow in ways you didn't think you would, and being good with everything that you've learned up until this point, even though it might not be the trajectory. I'm on the rest of my life, at least, you know there are some really practical, valuable skills that you learn, doing what you do, no matter what it is, and really kind of taking a moment to let that resonate and not beat yourself up about, not having it all figured out at age 21.

Rob 24:32

Now, Rob works for a Healthcare Corporation. And knows that as a lawyer, he's not pigeonholed, not in the way he thought he was at all. Here's what he had to say to others who might feel stuck in the career that they've chosen.

Rob 24:46

First of all, I would say that it's not a transition that will be the one and done. We are all in this and now have the realization that it's a transition that we make, maybe it's not every other month, hopefully, but it will have to be made again on some level, I think, certainly without giving the diligence it deserves doing the work. I often feel like I've done some work in this way. I know that's kind of a term that's bandied about quite a bit. I do truly feel that the work that you all put out on Happen To Your Career around the self assessments, the exercises, I think that's really important if you're being sort of, if you bring that honesty to it and just sort of let it all bear out, whether it's in the context of those exercises or not, you do yourself a disservice if you're just not being honest with yourself. And I will admit that before this process, I engaged in with you all. I don't want to say there was dishonesty, but it was just sort of a level of authenticity, I think that I found myself using in this context that I would recommend for folks. I mean, there's not going to be a silver bullet. It's going to look different for everyone, but as long as you bring your true self to whatever it is you're trying to figure out, career wise, there's a way. It may not look like what you have your vision of it exactly. I mean, I certainly wouldn't say that I envisioned myself in the work situation that I am now. But I'm satisfied with it. I mean, so I think along with discovery comes the sense of you have some agency over what happens to you. I mean, you can drive it to some extent, and as long as you're okay with leveraging resources that you probably have, you just may not have, may not be obvious to you. I mean, I think that's a nice recipe for figuring something out. So that's what I would say. And then I would say, you know, who knows? I think in my situation, I think I will find myself at a spot where I, depending on where I go here, there's now this opening of just constantly, kind of, doing a service to myself, to sort of say I value feeling good about my work. And should I not feel good about my work, what am I going to do about it? And I think it's a realization that I have that I guess constantly, have to challenge myself to make sure that things are good, and if they're not, then to take some concrete steps toward making them good.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:08

Here's the thing I'm hoping you're taken away from all of these other stories and audio from people who have made transitions that are really great for them. Each time refining their moves and making it better and better, and ultimately crafting the life that they want to build, inclusive of work, that takeaway, well, making a career change doesn't mean you've lost everything. You're not erasing everything. You're not starting from scratch. Whether you're feeling burned out, bored, stressed, stuck, whatever, you've heard how other lawyers who were once feeling the same way, how they transitioned to fulfilling careers without feeling like they wasted the years of legal experience. Instead, they moved on to work that fits them, where they can use their innate strengths and earn skills in new, impactful ways. So yes, it is very common to feel trapped by this investment of time and effort you've put into becoming a lawyer, and I think that's true for many other professions too, but especially as an attorney, I don't want you to let that fear hold you back. You don't need to settle. It's okay to pursue something and find something that fits you better. And how many more people will you be able to help if you are in a new career, new situation, you feel productive, you feel good about how you're helping others, acknowledging that you deserve a job that aligns with your values and needs is a huge first step. So give yourself a lot of credit for recognizing that. But I also want you to go a step further and realize that you can add a tremendously different impact to society. If you step out of the place where you are currently in and step into something that is a better fit, you'll contribute differently, you'll be able to show up in the world differently. And most importantly, your years in law can be the foundation for a rewarding new career. Now it's up to you. I want you to take action.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:08

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of health for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:01

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 6 30:07

Work was work. Work was something to earn the money so you can have fun. So I never even... It never even crossed my mind that I could be happy or have fun with my work, which I am doing now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:21

It's happened to most of us. You're cruising along in your career, doing what you think you should be doing, because it's what everyone always told you was right. You follow the directions, and you're on autopilot. You're keeping your head down, you're doing the work, and suddenly it hits you. A moment of clarity, almost like a pothole in the road, jars you awake, making you question everything, "How did I end up here? Where am I going? Who am I?" You realize you're not happy, not fulfilled, and you wonder if you can escape this hole you've dug into a career that you don't enjoy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:57

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep and you get it automatically. Even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week, adios. I'm out.